Barack Obama: Leader of next major religion?

[Ben Kenobi]

WTF?! That's not what I said. I said that the performance of the class depends more on the students efforts and abilitities than that of the teacher.

So why bother to have teachers at all? It's very important to have good teachers. If as you say, the teachers aren't making a difference, why are we paying them so much.

You can't use test scores to evaluate a teacher at all. Can a teacher make sure a student doesn't come to school drunk or stoned? Can a teacher make sure a student gets a good night sleep before the test?

No, but if 40 students all test low, is it the fault of the students? I'm telling you, yes the students do matter, but good teachers over time will get more out of them then bad teachers. And the numbers will show that.

Well that's the attitude that the public has, but it's wrong. Teacher evaluation is very difficult and often times inaccurate. Some of the best teachers often times look like the worst teachers.

I see what you are saying here, but the difference between the best and the worst is like night and day. I'm not trying to differentiate between the good and the average, but between the best and the worst. You look for the teachers who work hard not because they have to but because they care about their students.

That's great! There is a shortage of teachers in the US. As long as you have the credentials you are sure to get a job if you are willing to move.

btw, I taught high school for 1 year. I also was a substitute teacher for 3 years. It wasn't the job for me.

Good. Why didn't you stay on? Did you find a better job?

Job security is an important benefit that teachers have. It's one of the best incentives to give teachers. If we didn't have job security for teachers many teachers that we have now would be doing other jobs, and not just the "bad" teachers.

Like anything, some people take advantage of the fact that they cannot be fired. I know the vast majority of teachers are good, but there are always a few rotton apples.

I think many teachers would welcome merit pay because they would have incentives to work harder, and their hard work would be rewarded financially. It's not just about seniority.

The second part, is that when you have a position that cannot be fired, it becomes harder to hire people since you know you aren't going to be able to get rid of them.

Usually other teachers (like the department heads) decide who the best teachers are for the job. The principal usually goes along with their suggestion. The principal at the school that I taught at was right out of college. He only had the required 1 year teaching experience. There's no way he was more qualified to know a good teacher than someone with 10 or 15 years teaching experience.

Wow, he was young. No I agree. The school I used to go to, they had IB and the way it worked is that the principal would select the teachers for the program. Usually they were the department heads, and the program had all the best teachers concentrated.

The principal didn't like the idea and ended up scrapping it, which is a shame because the teachers loved it and they all competed to get on the list. The students loved it because it was an opportunity to get a real education.

I was thinking what would happen if all teaching was like that where they have some competition for positions not based on seniority?

That doesn't change the fact that you would still have the same number of teachers in the profession and they would still be teaching. But the point is that the students are most responsible for their performance, not the teachers. So the results would be exactly the same.

So good teachers don't have an impact on student performance? I don't believe that at all. I think a good teacher can get better performance out of their students.

It's like if you have a bell curve, and the curve gets shifted up a few points because the students on average are doing better then they have scored on the past. I also think it's important to hold students responsible for their performance, but that's not the only factor.

No, teachers as a whole lot are very good. The problem is society.

Oh don't get me wrong. I agree with you that teachers on a whole are good, but like any occupation some are not very good at all.

Maybe we should start a different thread instead of threadjacking this one.

[Zkribbler]

The problem with the thinking of persons such as Ben is that it is based upon the incorrect assumption that there is a surplus of teachers who are looking for these underpaid, overworked positions. We don't have enough teachers, and certainly not enough good ones. We can't afford to go around firing them because -- at least in California -- there's no certified teachers to replace them with.

[Ben Kenobi]

So if Johny was an A student in 6th grade, but in 7th grade he turns into a little hoodlum who ditches school everyday the teacher should be held accountable for that?

How often does that happen?

Also, schools already teach for the test. If you want base teachers pay on the tests they will teach nothing but the test probably. That's not so bad for math maybe, but might not be so good for other subjects. History, in particular is especially boring taught like that.

Then the problem lies with the test. I don't see what the problem is with standardised testing, if teachers are given a curriculum, then to have a test where that curriculum is test seems reasonable to me.

If teachers are permitted to teach the course as they see fit, then yes, the standardised testing won't work. But it's beeen a long time since teachers have done that.

In my case, we had to prep for two sets of exams in our grade 12 year. One was at a much higher standard then the other. The neat thing was, in preparing for the harder exams we already learned all the stuff we needed for the lesser set.

Preparing for the test and having your students do well doesn't necessarily mean "teaching to the test", it means meeting a minimum standard. If you go well above that then you will end up covering the material anyways.

[Ben Kenobi]

The problem with the thinking of persons such as Ben is that it is based upon the incorrect assumption that there is a surplus of teachers who are looking for these underpaid, overworked positions. We don't have enough teachers, and certainly not enough good ones. We can't afford to go around firing them because -- at least in California -- there's no certified teachers to replace them with.

California is in an interesting position because of demographics. In most places there are more teachers then students.

In economics the solutions would be twofold. First, open up more spaces for certification. Up here, because they have a surplus we do a 2 year program on top of a bachelors degree. That's 6! years of training. Down there, you do four and about a couple of months for the certification.

The radical suggestion I have is this. You can train nurses in 2 years, I don't see why you can't train teachers in 2 years. The less time it takes to get certified, the more likely you are to get teachers.

Third, allow administrators to fire teachers that aren't performing well. If you have any position where people can't be fired, it becomes very hard to hire anyone because you know you are going to be on the hook for them for 30 years.

The final solution would be to introduce something like merit pay to reward the teachers that are working hard. That gives them financial reasons to stay and it will reduce attrition.

[Mr. Harley]

Hello, Rah - very sloppy post for you! First, Obama has admitted that the land deal was poor judgement. It is the same kind of problem any kind of closed social system has (called an "oligarchy" if they are in power and use it to maintain it). He knows the guy, they live in the same area and have worked together via the Chicago Democratic machine, and the guy does him a favor. Known as access, and why I am commuting 1325 miles per week due to crooked contracting out of my job in the Federal Government - Lockheed Martin had Mrs. Cheney on the board. Endemic problem for both groups, Obama at least admits he made an error in judgement, although the deal was perfectly legal (and did show poor judgement IMHO). Mssrs. Delay and Rove (K-Street initiative) attempted to make that kind of dealing permanent at the federal level, with the label of Republican being required to do business with the Federal Government. Somewhat more egregious, and how many Republicans repudiated their party for that (a few did, but it took ALOT of pork and a tanking economy, and it is still more independents and moderates who switched reference poll numbers).

...I have not once seen him reach across the aisle to get something done...

Then do some research. He has reached accross the aisle. Did a quick google search - reference bipartisanship, revealed this list. I edited out the things that did not appear bipartisan, and left in a couple that may have been. Statements like this make you appear more like Oerdin and Dinodoc, and I had hoped upon visiting back to see you as the voice of informed, conservative reason (we have disagreed in the past, but generally on a polite note).

I also happen to agree he is partisan, if he was not he would be running as I believe they are called, independents. Notwithstanding my current dislike for Mr. Nader, his points about how the two parties pretty much have US politics sewn up to prevent a third party are accurate. And have been accurate since 1865, though different periods used different techniques to prevent a third party. FYI, Obama was definitely not my preferred choice of candidate, but he also is not on my "I will never vote for him" list either.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080124210312AAfT7Cb

by Tom V Member since:
December 14, 2007

...

-Obama passed legislation with Republican Senator Jim Talent to give gas stations a tax credit for installing E85 ethanol refueling pumps. The tax credit covers 30 percent of the costs of switching one or more traditional petroleum pumps to E85, which is an 85 percent ethanol/15 percent gasoline blend.

-After a number of inmates on death row were found innocent, Senator Obama worked with law enforcement officials to require the videotaping of interrogations and confessions in all capital cases.

-His first law was passed with Republican Tom Coburn, a measure to rebuild trust in government by allowing every American to go online and see how and where every dime of their tax dollars is spent.

...

-Obama joined forces with former U.S. Sen. Paul Simon (D-IL) to pass the toughest campaign finance law in Illinois history. The legislation banned the personal use of campaign money by Illinois legislators and banned gifts from lobbyists. Before the law was passed, one organization ranked Illinois worst among 50 states for its campaign finance regulations.

-As a member of the Veterans' Affairs Committee, Senator Obama has fought to help Illinois veterans get the disability pay they were promised, while working to prepare the VA for the return of the thousands of veterans who will need care after Iraq and Afghanistan.

-He traveled to Russia with Republican Dick Lugar to begin a new generation of non-proliferation efforts designed to find and secure deadly weapons around the world.

...

-Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.

...

-Obama has introduced and helped pass bipartisan legislation to limit the abuse of no-bid federal contracts.

...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

By the way, I'm an Obama supporter

We never would have guessed .

Well given how a few people on here are dense, it's good to point out the obvious sometimes. so there

[DinoDoc]

Statements like this make you appear more like Oerdin and Dinodoc

I think I'm actually insulted.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The final solution would be to introduce something like merit pay to reward the teachers that are working hard. That gives them financial reasons to stay and it will reduce attrition.

Instituting merit pay will raised problems if there is an attempt to institute it. E.g. what is merit, how is it measured, who deternines it.

A merit bonus has less problems. Yes, some principals will only pay their suck-ups...but most will act in good faith, and those that don't get the bonus won't be losing anything.

[Ben Kenobi]

Instituting merit pay will raised problems if there is an attempt to institute it. E.g. what is merit, how is it measured, who deternines it.

Yes, that is the biggest argument against it, whether there is an empirical measure. No measure will be perfect, but I think it's important that they have incentives to work harder.

A merit bonus has less problems. Yes, some principals will only pay their suck-ups...but most will act in good faith, and those that don't get the bonus won't be losing anything.

I think carrot stick works. Those who exceed the standard get a bonus. Those who meet the minimums stay on, and those who don't get fired.

[SlowwHand]

"I think carrot stick works. Those who exceed the standard get a bonus. Those who meet the minimums stay on, and those who don't get fired."

Seems right to me, Ben.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I think carrot stick works. Those who exceed the standard get a bonus. Those who meet the minimums stay on, and those who don't get fired.

...or are counselled on how to be better teachers.


I remember talked years ago to my then-Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg. She'd been a teacher in her younger days. Three attempts were made to fire her, none for the quality of her teaching. I remember all three attempts were based on pretty petty things, but I only specifically remember one: for wearing sandals.

[Jon Miller]

Honestly, people in the entertainment industry should have an extra 20% tax that gets used to increase the salary of teachers. (this kicks in after 30k)

JM

[Kidlicious]

Bk,

"Good. Why didn't you stay on? Did you find a better job?"

Teaching was very stressfull for me. It started affecting my health and I couldn't sleep. Some of the students and parents were too much for me. Although I really liked working with many of the students, parents, other teachers and everyone else I decided that I couldn't make a career out of it, because I would end up being very unhappy like a lot of other teachers that I saw.

It's very hard to describe how teaching is to people who haven't experienced it. Even my doctor couldn't understand why I was having health problems.

I wish you luck though and we certainly need people to step up and go for it.

[Kidlicious]

Mr. Harley,

Hi. It's good to see you. It's been awhile.

[Ben Kenobi]

Thanks Kid.

Surprised your doc didn't understand. Teaching is extremely stressful!

I'd be thrilled to get an opportunity in the US to teach.