USAians: What are you doing on this loooong MLK weekend?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Geronimo


well lo and behold, myself, imran, mr fun, che and everybody else who has expressed their contempt for Lee-Jackson day have done so remarkably peacefully.

I don't really have contempt for Lee or Jackson, but think that a day honoring them is stupid and terrible...

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

well lo and behold, myself, imran, mr fun, che and everybody else who has expressed their contempt for Lee-Jackson day have done so remarkably peacefully.

Oh no, I'm not sure where you think I am upset and bothered by you guys.

I felt Lee deserved better treatment then he was getting, that's all.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Oh no, I'm not sure where you think I am upset and bothered by you guys.

I felt Lee deserved better treatment then he was getting, that's all.

To be fair it was you who singled out Lee. The original criticism was of Lee-Jackson day so it need not have been seen as directed at Lee in particular. If there were a Rommel-Himmler day quite likely the anger that would generate would have little to do with Erwin Rommel.

Of course I still wonder why you'd feel moved to defend Lee when in fact he accomplished nothing of value for anybody. Sure, his contrition may spare him from our contempt and scorn but how has he earned any particular honor for himself?

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I got mixed up with what you are asking.

I thought you were asking if Lee wanted to extend or hasten the end of the war.

My apologies.

Okay then.

He knew, given the course of the war, that his time was running out if he wanted to win. I think he was willing to risk it all then because he believed if he succeeded, the war would end. He also knew he had to try. I think he was also comfortable with either outcome win or lose which is why he was willing to risk it all.

I disagree with the last line but I've threadjacked enough. He was willing to risk it all to win knowing he might lose in the process but I don't think "comfortable" would be the word I'd use.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I agree with you that people should have the right to criticise what other states do.

But I am questioning whether they OUGHT to exercise that right. People are free to do plenty of things that they OUGHT not to do.

Why ought not people criticize things they find morally repulsive in other states? Isn't that the proper way to change people's minds? If you find a practice morally repulsive, shouldn't you act towards changing peoples' minds from that?

I mean, Michigan has a very large Arab & Muslim population. If they started allowing the practice of Sharia in the state, I think I OUGHT to criticize that practice, loudly and publically.

I think it's an important principle that people learn to respect holidays and celebrations that they don't personally agree with.

As do I (religious holidays and celebrations are fine by me), until that holiday or celebration celebrates something I found to be utterly morally repugnant.

[Zkribbler]

I think it's an important principle that people learn to respect holidays and celebrations that they don't personally agree with.

A few years ago, I visited the island nation of Mauritius, off the coast of Africa. I was told that, when there's a Muslim holiday, all the Christians and Hindus join in; when there's a Hindu holiday, all the Muslim and Christians join in, and when there's a Christian holiday, all the Muslims and Hindus join in. I think they are a very wise people.

--Plus, they get to party a lot.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course I still wonder why you'd feel moved to defend Lee when in fact he accomplished nothing of value for anybody. Sure, his contrition may spare him from our contempt and scorn but how has he earned any particular honor for himself?

Good question. That was kind of my point earlier. His service with the Confederacy was 4 years out of a lifelong career in the military.

You should be asking yourself, how does a man acheive such acclaim and renown as to be selected by Lincoln prior to the start of the civil war, if he's accomplished nothing of significance.

He was a hero in the Mexican-American war, and rose in the ranks from Captain of engineers up to Colonel and his commander was Gen Winfield Scott, who recommended him for service in the Union Army. He was well known as an innovative tactician.

After the war he served as the president of Washington College and transformed the school, as well as a few others that based themselves on their model. He even supported state funded schools for black students in Virginia.

I think the funny part of this whole argument is that Lee was pardoned in the end by the US and was restored to full citizenship. So clearly, they back then didn't consider him to be a traitor but restored in full into the union.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why ought not people criticize things they find morally repulsive in other states? Isn't that the proper way to change people's minds? If you find a practice morally repulsive, shouldn't you act towards changing peoples' minds from that?

I agree with you however, what is your moral opposition to a Lee-Jackson day? So far all I have heard is that it is offensive to black people, but that's hardly an argument. That the celebration supports white supremacy is another, but those seem more like slander then true statements.

I mean, Michigan has a very large Arab & Muslim population. If they started allowing the practice of Sharia in the state, I think I OUGHT to criticize that practice, loudly and publically.

Indeed you should as such would be an abrogation of civil rights and liberties. My question for you, is the celebration of Lee and Jackson an abrogation of the civil liberties of minorities in Virginia? Does the celebration support abrogating their duly earned rights?

As do I (religious holidays and celebrations are fine by me), until that holiday or celebration celebrates something I found to be utterly morally repugnant.

Southerners deserve their culture too. You can't hate on them just because you don't like them Imran. It's fine if you consider it morally repugnant, honestly that tells me more of you then them.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Southerners deserve their culture too. You can't hate on them just because you don't like them Imran. It's fine if you consider it morally repugnant, honestly that tells me more of you then them.

You know what? It's HIGH TIME for white Southerners to find ways to celebrate the distinctiveness of their region's culture that is inclusive of other race and ethnic groups who also live in the South instead of such divisive, and racist "celebrations" as waving the Confederate flag.

I'm all for the South celebrating its own regional culture, cuisine, customs, and so forth. But white Southerners generally do this at the exclusion of non-white Southerners and usually, this includes offensive, racist elements.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You should be asking yourself, how does a man acheive such acclaim and renown as to be selected by Lincoln prior to the start of the civil war, if he's accomplished nothing of significance.

He was a hero in the Mexican-American war, and rose in the ranks from Captain of engineers up to Colonel and his commander was Gen Winfield Scott, who recommended him for service in the Union Army. He was well known as an innovative tactician.

Of course, you realize that you can also put together quite an impressive list of accomplishments for one Benedict Arnold as well. He, most likely, was the greatest American general of the Revolution before he jumped sides.

what is your moral opposition to a Lee-Jackson day

The holiday is celebrating an insurrection that was begun over the issue of slavery. I used to think all that "states rights" crap and whatnot, but over the years it is futile to try to admit that it wasn't slavery that was the main issue involved, especially when reading the speeches for secession.

Southerners deserve their culture too. You can't hate on them just because you don't like them Imran. It's fine if you consider it morally repugnant, honestly that tells me more of you then them.

Don't you mean "white Southerners"? Because I doubt a lot of black folk are celebrating Lee and Jackson, two generals, who if they won, would have resulted in victory for a racist state that would have kept them in bondage for far longer than they had been.

The fact that you DON'T consider it morally repugnant says a lot about you as well... willing to look the other way when people celebrate racism under the guise of "culture".

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I'll have to remember that. You can't be a traitor if the revolution succeeds.

Well duh.

"Treason doth never prosper; what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

Sir John Harrington, Epigrams, Book iv. Ep. 5 1600 or thereabouts.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


There are causes honourable and dishonourable. That seems to be the real issue.

Where lies the honour in celebrating people who fought to keep other humans enslaved ?

Face facts- the only reason Southern state governments could wantonly rub Confederate leaders and flags in the faces of their African American citizens was because of the progressive disenfranchisement of them by State legislatures and officers and by terrorist groups such as the K.K.K. after the Civil War was over.


How to ignore the elephant in the room...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Why? It's part of their heritage.

So is lynching and discrimination based on race and religion- Jews and Roman Catholics were also targets in the Deep South.


Perhaps Alabama could have a 'F*ck The Pope' Day. Very Orange, very 'heritage'.

I look forward to your unfettered support for Gay Pride Days and even a Roe-v-Wade Day, in true ecumenical spirit.

[LordShiva]

[q=Alexander Stephens, VP of teh CSA]"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner–stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery — subordination to the superior race — is his natural and normal condition."[/q]

That's what Lee and Jackson fought for. Let's honour them

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Neither you or Imran are getting it. Yes you should be free to do plenty of things you ought not to do.

Someone hasn't read their Catechism closely.

There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin!".