USAians: What are you doing on this loooong MLK weekend?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Had Virginia gone to the Union, the Union would have had him as their General, and the war would have been over in a few months. We wouldn't be talking about it much today.

Of course, but that still doesn't take away that those who raised arms against their country would be traitors. Lee just wouldn't be among them.

Was his loyalty to the government of the United States, or to the state of Virginia? He has two oaths. How can he break one and be a faithful to the other. By your demand, he would have been a traitor either way in that he went back on his oath.

Perhaps so, but he chose to be a traitor to the United States. The US won, so why should a part of it honor a traitor to itself? Its nice he stuck by Virginia, but the rebellion was beaten and Virginia is now a part of the United States.

Funny thing is that some backwards Confederate sympathizers considered James Longstreet to be a traitor to them for helping out during Reconstruction.

At the worst he died a reformed traitor.

Of course he's a traitor. Once you raise arms against your country, that's what you are. But he was only "reformed" once he got beat. Sorry, I won't give him anything for that. He did what he had to to save his skin after the war.

[Geronimo]

Hopefully even Ben agrees that Stonewall Jackson does not deserve a Holiday. It's absurd to honor Lee but Jackson is even worse.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course, but that still doesn't take away that those who raised arms against their country would be traitors. Lee just wouldn't be among them.

That's all I'm arguing here. Lee is a special case given the circumstances surrounding his situation, the offer from Lincoln, etc. His conduct afterwards, outright opposition to secession prior, it's very different then the sympathisers to the confederacy the he had to oppose and shout down in order to keep the peace.

Perhaps so, but he chose to be a traitor to the United States. The US won, so why should a part of it honor a traitor to itself? Its nice he stuck by Virginia, but the rebellion was beaten and Virginia is now a part of the United States.

I think it's important that states should be able to honour those they consider to be heroes. Lee was a hero of Virginia and rightfully so. As was Jackson. They were both native sons and fought well for their state. Now, the federal government I can see having a problem with it, but I don't believe it should be the decision of the federal government to dictate state holidays.

Funny thing is that some backwards Confederate sympathizers considered James Longstreet to be a traitor to them for helping out during Reconstruction.

Yes, which is why Lee was so important. His standing among the Confederacy was unimpeachable. None of the other Generals could shout him down because they understood that without Lee, they would not have lasted nearly as long as they did.

The fact that Lee supported reconstruction, and insisted that the South was better off without slavery was an enormous benefit to the US at the time.

Of course he's a traitor. Once you raise arms against your country, that's what you are. But he was only "reformed" once he got beat. Sorry, I won't give him anything for that. He did what he had to to save his skin after the war.

That's fair enough. The issue really isn't "Do I agree with a Lee-Jackson day, but whether the people of Virginia should be able to have their own state holidays. It shouldn't be based on our personal preferences.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

That's fair enough. The issue really isn't "Do I agree with a Lee-Jackson day, but whether the people of Virginia should be able to have their own state holidays. It shouldn't be based on our personal preferences.

I at least am not interested in some sort of federal intervention to prevent them from designating such a holiday. In fact I would be greatly opposed to such an effort. Rather I support the right of outsiders to critically examine those holidays and pass judgment on those who advocate them.

[Kidlicious]

We should have just dropped the bomb on the South.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Kidicious
We should have just dropped the bomb on the South.

We loosed General Sherman on them, with much the same effect.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


We loosed General Sherman on them, with much the same effect.

Meh. The bomb as a certain effect, in that it makes them STFU.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Consider the motives. Why did Guy Fawkes rebel?

I don't know. I just thought it would be fun to build big bonfires and burn effigies of teh Confederate traitors

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by LordShiva


I don't know. I just thought it would be fun to build big bonfires and burn effigies of teh Confederate traitors

My suggestion to the Minnesota Historical Society that we organize a parade every 2nd of July through the streets of Minneapolis to show off our collection of captured confederate flags appears to have gone nowhere so I'm not optimistic.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Civil wars are a different matter entirely.

Not so much.

You will find ones of Cromwell.

His people won in the long run. Teh Glorious Revolution ring any bells?

I care because I think you are wrong. Lee wasn't a traitor.

Not to you he wasn't, because you aren't an American.

Indeed. Won the battle, but not the war. Great Britain was very stubborn.

As far was America was concerned, the war ended in Oct. 1781. Britain packed up and went home. France, Spain, and the Netherlands were on the winning side.

Yes, but Britain was willing to fight it out to the bitter end.

And yet they lost.

As ill-conceived and damaging as the war was, France couldn't keep their coalition together.

And yet they did.

We see the same against Napoleon. Napoleon defeats one coalition, and Britain makes another. Napoleon defeats another coalition, and Britain stitches a new one, until they finally took him down.

That was an entirely different matter altogether. France under Napoleon was a continental super power. Britain could not afford to let Napoleon consolidate his power, because once he was able to put together a navy, he would be crossing the straights.

The same ilk he offered command of his forces? Lincoln had much respect for Lee, much more the McLellan or most of his generals. The only other one he had as much respect for was Grant.

This is entirely irrelevant. He took up arms against the government of the United States. That makes him a traitor. You can't mitigate his treason by saying he was opposed to the treason but did it anyway. I don't care. He shouldn't have fought for the South.

You don't seem to get this. Neither of those were civil wars. A simillar case would be statues of Lord Protector Cromwell.

Again, Cromwell's people won in the long run. Perhaps if there were celebrations of Charles I you might have a point.

Which is why he opposed secession and fought against the secessionists in Virginia?

Irrelevant. Once those secessionists carried the day, he fought for them, rather than against them. If he had fought against them, then he wouldn't be a traitor.

After the war was over he campaigned hard for the reintegration of the South and the restoration of the South as an integral part of the union.

Irrelevant.

He's not a traitor Che.

By definition he is. He fought against his country. You cannot fight against your country and not be a traitor.

[Wezil]

Sorry to interject...

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
His 'plans' at Gettysburg, if they can be said was to end the war. McLellan realised that but couldn't defeat him.

Are you arguing Lee wanted to lose at Gettsyburg in order to hasten the end of the war?

Btw, the Union armies at Gettysburg were commanded by Meade, not McClellan.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
By definition he is. He fought against his country. You cannot fight against your country and not be a traitor.

His country was the CSA.

[chequita guevara]

The CSA was never a country.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Lee is a special case given the circumstances surrounding his situation

No he isn't. His reluctance is irrelevant. He took up arms against the US. He's a traitor. End of story.

I think it's important that states should be able to honour those they consider to be heroes.

I think it is important that true patriots stop states from honoring traitors. Either that or lose any credibility when proclaiming patriotism.

without Lee, they would not have lasted nearly as long as they did.

Which makes him one of the worst traitors.

whether the people of Virginia should be able to have their own state holidays. It shouldn't be based on our personal preferences.

So you wouldn't protest if the state of Massachusetts had a Richard Dawkins day? I don't believe that for a second.

If the state chooses to honor a loathsome individual or two, we should be able to call them on it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
His country was the CSA.

My country is The No Country Left of the United People's Republic (TNCLUPR).