USAians: What are you doing on this loooong MLK weekend?

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually, it's the Confederate Naval Jack. The Battle Flag was square. It was created during the war. It was adopted by the organization of the confederate veterans in the 1890s. This occurred at the same time as Jim Crow laws and lynch law were sweeping across the South and when the Daughters of the Confederacy began their massive white wash campaign (which you have swallowed, hook, line, and sinker), even erecting statues and monuments to the Confederacy in areas that were hotbeds of union sympathy and support. With the rise of the 2nd Klan, the Confederate flag was adopted as the symbol of white supremacy overtly, and has been used as such since 1915.

Which is why it was used by the Dukes of Hazzard?

Che, if you wanted to use an image to represent the Confederacy, what image would you use? When you think of a flag for the south what image comes to mind?

The Klan adopted the Iron Cross also, does that mean that the iron cross symbolises white supremacy? An image only has power if people agree with them, and right now Che, you are listening to what the Klan says and you are believing them when they expropriate an image.

No, they have no right not to have other folks telling them what to do. They may or may not chose to listen, but if they chose to engage in behavior or language that is odious to the rest of America, they have absolutely no right to expect the rest of us to tell them off.

Fair enough, it is considerable animosity.

And you, you disgust me. You keep talking about how much you love America and want to be an American, but you reject American and embrace the single largest act of treason against America in our history.

You are a brave man che. I suppose you would say this to the good doc or to MtG?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Because we have sparred earlier. You seem to make an argument that the flag of the confederacy is a celebration of the lost cause? You are the only one I know that has asserted that hypothesis.

So you're saying the CONFEDERATE flag has nothing to do with the historical past of the CONFEDERATE States of America?

[MrFun]

On another note, I do find it curious that no one has wanted to respond to my post about post-Reconstruction South, along with my illustrative example of how this new South instituted a reign of terror on blacks.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MrFun
This does not mean that I find his plagarism acceptable in the slightest.

Do you refer to him as a Doctor?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can we just split the difference and save us all the tedious whining from both sides and call the day Plagiarism Appreciation Day?

I've got a better idea. We've got holidays celebrating the common soldier, Memorial Day, and Veteran's Day. We need one for the brass. Let's remake Lee - Jackson Day into Generals Day and have each state celebrate it's favorite highest ranking officer. We could also expand MLK Day into Pacifist's Day and use it to honor other great leaders of peace. The two days together would be sort of like Halloween and All Saints Day.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Do you refer to him as a Doctor?

Actually, I never have referred to him using that title.

However, I still believe that a day commemorating him is an honorable thing to do. The courage and strength he demonstrated during the civil rights movement and his own clear, moral message regarding social and economic justice far outweigh his detestable action of plagarism.


Not only that, but I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Plagarism and white supremacist ideology are two entirely different moral issues. When has a pro-plagarism ideology ever helped rationalize socially-sanctioned, widespread lynching of people belonging to a minority group? When has a pro-plagarism ideology ever helped create disfranchisement laws to make the Fifteenth Amendment a dead letter?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


All I ask is that you take into account that I have a history degree also, and I have done a civil war paper on Gen McClellan.

Are these the credentials required for making assertions which are not backed up by relevant quotes and external references ?


And for getting basic facts wrong ?


By the way- who were those people who believe that M.L.K. Day entitles the man's memory to a whitewashing and historical lamination ?

You still haven't said. Like you still haven't posted any evidence for Robert E Lee's 'campaign' against slavery.


But then, you didn't mention that he also gave the Ku Klux Klan his blessing...

Which is why it was used by the Dukes of Hazzard?

Ah, that well known all black cast example of cinema verite.


You're plumbing heretofore unseen abyssal depths of irrelevance.

even said part of what makes Lee worthy of a day is the fact that he opposed this faction within the confederacy both during the war and after the war.

By giving the Klan his blessing ?

How is it that the symbols of the Confederacy were allowed to proliferate across the South after its defeat in the Civil War ?

Simple- one party, white only politics and legislatures, along with the widespread intimidation of black citizens and the denial of the franchise to them.

From 'Watson's Jeffersonian Magazine':

The Roman Catholic hierarchy is the deadliest menace to our Liberties and our Civilization.... ( because of ) the sinister portent of Negro priests.

Tom Watson, Southern politican

Lest it be thought that Mr. Watson only disliked blacks and Catholics, he was decidedly ecumenical in his antipathies:

(on Leo Frank, Jewish factory superintendent, and victim of lynching)

...those bulging satyr eyes, the protruding fearfully sensual lips; and also the animal jaw...

were what rendered him guilty in Mr. Watson's expert legal opinion. Reads almost like 'Der Sturmer; or the 'Volkischer Beobachter'.

Furthermore:

(Frank was guilty as a Jew due to his) ...ravenous appetite for the forbidden fruit- a lustful eagerness enhanced by the racial novelty of the girl of the uncircumcised...

et cetera, et cetera.

One feels some degree of pity for these strangely unmanly white Southern men, so threatened by the supposedly animal sexuality of the Jew and the Negro- so threatened that only violent reprisal and terrorism by gangs of them can defeat the evil menaces of uppity blacks, the 'Jewish aristocracy' (Watson again) and Negro priests!

Pastoral scene of the 'gallant South':

[ZEE]

[MrFun]

That picture of the lynching that you posted Molly happened in 1930 in Indiana. The two victims were Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith.

This is an illustrative example of how lynching sometimes occured in the Northern states as well (such as Indiana). Another lynching that I know of, happened in Minessota in early twentieth century.

The fact remains though, that racist-motivated lynching of blacks were far more common in Southern states than anywhere else. One of the reasons was that lynching was a socially-sanctioned means in the South to maintain "order" in the spirit of Jim Crow era.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MrFun
However, I still believe that a day commemorating him is an honorable thing to do. The courage and strength he demonstrated during the civil rights movement and his own clear, moral message regarding social and economic justice far outweigh his detestable action of plagarism.

Not only that, but I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Plagarism and white supremacist ideology are two entirely different moral issues. When has a pro-plagarism ideology ever helped rationalize socially-sanctioned, widespread lynching of people belonging to a minority group? When has a pro-plagarism ideology ever helped create disfranchisement laws to make the Fifteenth Amendment a dead letter?

This is actually amusing in a wierd way. Is there some sort of malfunction with your monitor or have you suffered a brain injury? Cuz I'm not surte how you got that from what I posted.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This is actually amusing in a wierd way. Is there some sort of malfunction with your monitor or have you suffered a brain injury? Cuz I'm not surte how you got that from what I posted.

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can we just split the difference and save us all the tedious whining from both sides and call the day Plagiarism Appreciation Day?

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Well I'm unaware of plagiarism on the part of Lee or Jackson. I just thought if we removed the name from the day, people might stop with the tedious debate.

Which suggests you were connecting MLK's plagiarism to stopping the tedious debate (whining) around Lee-Jackson day. So why are you surprised when Mr Fun responds to your apparently obvious comparison? If you were making no such comparison how in the hell could your attempt to bring up MLK plagiarism stop the tedious debate and whining about Lee Jackson day?

[DinoDoc]

Actually, I'm just tired of the waaaa, Confederacy/South bad debate in a forum where it's likely to only be an echo chamber. I just find the whole thing boring really. Which is the reason why I didn't participate in it.

As for the point I brought up, I'm curious what and how many sins people are willing to forgive in a person pursuing an end they agree with? The doctorate is still regarded as being valid by the Uni that issue it for example.

[Patroklos]

Hah, you guys are funny, is there even a Virginian out of the whole lot of you?

Lee's loyalty was to Virginia, Virginia joined a confederation voluntarily, making Lee obligated to serve that confederation through Virginia and at her pleasure. Virginia legally left as half the nation felt at the time, and thus Lee's obligation to that confederation was no longer valid. Lee was very consistant in what he did.

I know you guys want to make this something it is not, but history is history. The funny thing is that Lincoln and his contemporaries understood all this, you hold him in gread regard apparently, yet his first hand understanding of all this is nonsence to you. Awesome

Virginia doesn't care what the rest of you guys think about this, and we in no way want to make anyone else celebrate it. It is our holiday, in our state, celebrated by our people, butt the hell out.

Btw, do notoriously rebellious provinces in France, Spain and Italy have their own heros? Cromwell is also a good example.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Actually, I'm just tired of the waaaa, Confederacy/South bad debate in a forum where it's likely to only be an echo chamber. I just find the whole thing boring really. Which is the reason why I didn't participate in it.

As for the point I brought up, I'm curious what and how many sins people are willing to forgive in a person pursuing an end they agree with? The doctorate is still regarded as being valid by the Uni that issue it for example.

I think about that too from time to time and I've concluded that it seems to depend on a sort of weighing of what was accomplished, how it was accomplished and what the crimes were, how the crimes were accomplished and what context it all occured in.

Just look at what reprehensible racist bastards the founding fathers were and yet there are monuments to many of them. Hell, most states had a holiday honoring Columbus not so very long ago and that guy was an appalling arsehole. Presumably Columbus was honored for connecting the old world and the new. He may have been a bastard but he accomplished something especially notable.

Lee-Jackson are special in that they accomplished nothing notable and can really only be honored for their crimes.

[Patroklos]

Lee-Jackson are special in that they accomplished nothing notable and can really only be honored for their crimes.

In your humble opinion. I agree Jackson should be left out, his sole contribution to history being his military prowess. But then again it is a state holiday, how many nations celebrate great military heros who did nothing else?