Evil Finn?

[VetLegion]

What am I doing?

I have been asked to beleive a result that places certain limits because of probability. I can say that not only has everything I have seen not been even close to the stated results, but I have evidence that is far enough from the stated results so as to make them rediculous.

What evidence?

[Jon Miller]

Actually, I do better then estimate someones IQ. I observe their intelligence.

I see what sort of mathematics and science someone is capable of, for example. As far as the intelligence that IQ tests measure, there is a strong correlation there (I think that physicists average IQ is around 140). So either I personally know almost all the smartest black people in the world, or the 60-70 number is wrong.

Note that if the 'natural IQ of a black person was 60, then a black person whose IQ was 140 would be just as rare as finding a person who has an IQ of 180. And I know black physicists who are very smart (I don't mean compared to the general populace, I mean compared to phycisists).

Additionally, as I already mentioned, I go to a black church. And have lived in communities which were predominantly black. I have little to no experience with blacks who I would think were a bit retarded (below IQ of 85). Now there might be people I met who did have a lower IQ, but I didn't interact with them enoguh, I admit. But IQs in the below 70 range would have stood out.

I also have met lots of people, just average blacks in america, who were bright young students. People I consider to be bright young students likely have an IQ of 110+. And I wasn't seeing people at some special school like Kuci's or anything. This would be like me meeting lots of geniuses, randomly (if the natural IQ were 60-70), outside of physics. This is very very unlikely.

Now maybe all the naturally IQ limited people might be in africa or something. But this would have to assume that the communities that I have seen members of stayed genetically distinct for a long period of time... which is just stupid.

So yes, the idea that the genetic IQ for black people is 60-70 compared to a whites ~100 is just stupid.

JM

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Actually, I do better then estimate someones IQ. I observe their intelligence.

I see what sort of mathematics and science someone is capable of, for example. As far as the intelligence that IQ tests measure, there is a strong correlation there (I think that physicists average IQ is around 140). So either I personally know almost all the smartest black people in the world, or the 60-70 number is wrong.

Note that if the 'natural IQ of a black person was 60, then a black person whose IQ was 140 would be just as rare as finding a person who has an IQ of 180. And I know black physicists who are very smart (I don't mean compared to the general populace, I mean compared to phycisists).

Additionally, as I already mentioned, I go to a black church. And have lived in communities which were predominantly black. I have little to no experience with blacks who I would think were a bit retarded (below IQ of 85). Now there might be people I met who did have a lower IQ, but I didn't interact with them enoguh, I admit. But IQs in the below 70 range would have stood out.

I also have met lots of people, just average blacks in america, who were bright young students. People I consider to be bright young students likely have an IQ of 110+. And I wasn't seeing people at some special school like Kuci's or anything. This would be like me meeting lots of geniuses, randomly (if the natural IQ were 60-70), outside of physics. This is very very unlikely.

Now maybe all the naturally IQ limited people might be in africa or something. But this would have to assume that the communities that I have seen members of stayed genetically distinct for a long period of time... which is just stupid.

So yes, the idea that the genetic IQ for black people is 60-70 compared to a whites ~100 is just stupid.

JM

What do you think the chances of an African with a 60-70 IQ getting to the U.S. and meeting you are?

[Jon Miller]

So you are saying taht there is a difference between africans and african americans?

A strong genetic difference in intelligence, after only a couple hundred years?

JM

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
So you are saying taht there is a difference between africans and african americans?

A strong genetic difference in intelligence, after only a couple hundred years?

JM

The average IQ for black Americans is 85. They also have a considerable admixture with whites.

[Jon Miller]

Still a rediculous idea. If the average is 60-70, that means that there are never any very intelligent people, and that there are a lot of basically animals.

While I don't just know blacks from africa who are in physics, or college, I do admit that my experience there is more limited. I can ask my brother who spent a year as a missionary in Mali though... from his attitudes I don't think that the people there were all retarded.

Oh, and I do know a number of physicists from africa.

I don't see the 85 number either, but it is a lot harder to rule out then the 60-70 number.

JM

[Kuciwalker]

Cali, if the average IQ were 60-70 a huge proportion of the population of Africa would be complete gibbering idiots. A society like that just couldn't function.

[Caligastia]

Jon/Kuciwalker

Like I was saying before, my understanding is that a white with an IQ that low is generally worse off than a black because they are so far removed form the norm. And I think it's also helpful to recognise the limitations of IQ and the IQ measurements that were taken in Africa. I don't believe that a 60-70 IQ score gives us an idea of the total capabilities of the population.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
If some way of raising Black IQ is found then I will be all for it. I have grave doubts that this can be easily done, but if it can I will be as happy as the next man.

Well, we have successfully raised it from 60-70 to 85 in just a few posts without even trying...

Is this Cali's most blatantly racist thread yet? I'd hate to think he'd gotten away with a worse one.

And Winston too. There's a colossal surprise!

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Your links show that IQ is influenced by environmental factors (hardly news), and you seem to be extrapolating this to mean that black IQ levels can easily be raised to white levels. And you are so sure of this that anyone who says otherwise must be either evil or stupid - yet you accuse me of lacking clinical detachment. I'm not the one who started a thread about how evil or stupid someone is.

Remember, Cal. This point started with me claiming it's easy to raise your IQ scores.

Go take loads of IQ tests. Your IQ scores will rise. Easy-peasy. Case closed. Buh-bye.

Go on. Argue the point. Claim that's not possible.

Why should I bother when you practically ignored the article I already posted. I responded to what you posted about it, but you've ignored that too.

I've posted a couple of other related links in this thread too, but apparently I'm being coy.

The Edwards article about statistics bored the crap out of me and wasn't relevant to any point I was arguing, so why should I comment on it? After sampling that, I wasn't about to go into anything not directed at me, but feel free to highlight whichever one you feel offers the most devastating rebuttal of my case.

I assume you're referring to high black crime rates? Only you would refer to that as a theory,

Want to bet? Try studying degree-level Penology like I did. There's loads of them.

The brutal fact is that it is a theory. You've tried to prove a factual basis many times, and each time (after offering flawed arguments fixated on conviction rates) you've ended up falling back on anecdotal references to your own experiences- so don't get all snooty at others. It's hypocritical.

And you view these articles (no data) as proof positive that intelligence is completely environmentally influenced? And again, you're so sure of this that anyone who believes otherwise is evil or stupid, right?

Nope. Intentional strawman, or just an error caused by getting a bit cross?

I think "political scientists" who argue that the genetic intellectual inferiority of black people means that only European or Asians can sort of Africa's economic problems are either evil or stupid. You may quote me on that. I've pointed out this exact point before in this thread, and I'm totally comfortable with it.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Caligastia
How can you be sure that your estimates of people's IQ are accurate? Have you ever tested your ability to estimate someone's IQ?

I've never tried guessing yours. The fact that you appear to have huge difficultyin seeing why it's actually very hard to convincingly correllate conviction crimes with true crime committal rates indicates a shortfall in your capacity for logical reasoning, but you might be a whizz in other areas. It could still be quite high.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

If anyone's interested, here's another report on black IQ test results rising relative to white results.

http://www3.brookings.edu/views/papers/dickens/20060619_IQ.pdf

[MOBIUS]

Well, at that rate it won't be long before all the blacks in the US have a higher IQ than Cali...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Jon/Kuciwalker

Like I was saying before, my understanding is that a white with an IQ that low is generally worse off than a black because they are so far removed form the norm.

Your understanding is wrong, then people with Down's have IQ's under 70. Those people just can't make a functional society by themselves. Even if the difference from the norm exacerbates the problem in industrial societies, Jon's point holds.

And I think it's also helpful to recognise the limitations of IQ and the IQ measurements that were taken in Africa. I don't believe that a 60-70 IQ score gives us an idea of the total capabilities of the population.

i.e. the tests were flawed and weren't accurately measuring IQ.

[Kuciwalker]

Remember, Cal. This point started with me claiming it's easy to raise your IQ scores.

Go take loads of IQ tests. Your IQ scores will rise. Easy-peasy. Case closed. Buh-bye.

Go on. Argue the point. Claim that's not possible.

That actually doesn't imply that IQ is easy to raise, which is the point you really want to be making. (Most people aren't trained to take IQ tests, so that shouldn't really influence the averages derived from large samples.)