Evil Finn?

[Caligastia]

Yup, I've read about the Flynn effect, but it certainly doesn't prove that "IQ is a factor that's easy to raise".

Face it Laz, neither of us is an expert, so all we can do is look at what the experts say and form an opinion. Acting as if the issues surrounding intelligence are settled, and anyone who disagrees must be evil or stupid is utterly absurd.

Personally, I think IQ is influenced by both nature and nurture, but I'm not so enamoured with this opinion that I think any contrarian evil or stupid. That's your problem Laz: you're very emotionally invested in your opinion, and I don't believe you make a genuine effort to read the other side of the argument - other than to try and find ways to shoot it down. Your mind is made up.

If some way of raising Black IQ is found then I will be all for it. I have grave doubts that this can be easily done, but if it can I will be as happy as the next man.

[VetLegion]

Posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

That any number of once-popular theories suggesting that the Irish/Mongols/Chinese/Blacks are a racial underclass typified by genetically-low intelligence have fallen by the wayside. With good reason.

IQ is a factor that's easy to raise.

It is not. That's quite easy to test actually. Very popular type of "experiment" in this field is to look at twins or adopted children.

If IQ was easy to raise, that is - if it was determined solely or mostly by environment, then adopted children in a family should have similar IQs to children born to the adopting parents. They are raised in the same conditions after all.

I haven't heard of a study that found that, and plenty have been done.


EDIT: edited to include the quote... I did a major crosspost so it looked as if I was replying to Caligastia.

[Caligastia]

The reply to that is that pre-natal conditions aren't taken into account. But precisely what pre-natal conditions (other than the obvious ones like alcohol and drug abuse) specifically affect IQ, I don't know.

[Jon Miller]

If the average IQ in africa, naturally, was 60-70, it would be very apparent.

This is obviously not the case from my interactions with african americans and immegrant africans, so the suggestion that there is a 30+ point different is just rediculous.

I could beleive a couple point difference, but haven't seen any evidence for it. (and africans could even be a couple points higher)

JM

[RGBVideo]

Flynn effect reversed in Europe nearly 20 years ago...

The affair simply demonstrates that Finland is a thoroughly politically-correctized country.

Not really. The newspaper which published this "sensational news" in it's net version linked by Laz tried to push it even harder, using it's monthly, weekly and daily editions to attack both Vanhanen's and try to link father to son almost to the point of hysteria around the time they translated this article in 2004. Outside this particular newspaper, nobody really gave a ****. The "scandal" dwindled down, and HS decided not to push it after 1-2 months or so, deciding to pass the inevitable backfire their influence would receive for an around-the-year character assassination against a single target.

Some Finnish speakers reading this might question me in hinting at an organised, biased campaign against Vanhanen from HS. Weren't they only reporting the news as it was? It's pretty worthless to start remembering for invididual errors and lies from unavailable news reportages written four years ago, but I could still recall three different op-eds about the subject sent to HS's "opinions"-pages, which point out very stark flaws of logic in the way how HS presented the truth.

Otteita ensimmäisestä Helsingin Sanomiin lähetetystä (ei-julkaistusta) kirjoituksesta:
On erittäin karua, jos tiedemies ei saa kertoa tutkimustensa tuloksia julkisuuteen, olivat ne oikeita tai vääriä. On kahdenlaisia yhteiskuntia. Toisissa tieteellisten teorioiden validiuden arvioi tiedeyhteisö. Toisissa taas saman tehtävän hoitaa tuomioistuin.
[...]
[T]iedän jotain siitä, miten tieto ja tietämys maailmassa lisääntyvät. Joku esittää hypoteesin, ja asiantuntevat tahot pyrkivät kumoamaan sen tosiasioilla, ts. verifioitavilla tutkimustuloksilla, ei julistuksilla tai subjektiivisilla mielipiteillä. Ellei hypoteesiä voida tieteelliset kriteerit täyttävillä keinoilla kumota, se on toistaiseksi voimassa. Jos siis Vanhasen näkemykset (jotka eivät ole vain hänen omiaan) halutaan kumota, on esitettävä vastakkaista näkemystä tukevia tosiasioita tai osoitettava, mikä Vanhasen metodologiassa on pielessä. Tutkimuksessa on kritisoitava prosessia, ei väärää tulosta.

They were sent by the same person one after another, in each of them the character length goes down because the previous one(s) weren't printed in. None of them were ever released or privately replied to. Since the "opinions"-pages are usually filled by rants about dog feces or littering on the pathways, there is an obvious answer on why they weren't.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
If the average IQ in africa, naturally, was 60-70, it would be very apparent.

Not necessarily...see my reply to Dinodoc.

This is obviously not the case from my interactions with african americans and immegrant africans, so the suggestion that there is a 30+ point different is just rediculous.

Because of your interactions? Do you feel you have a representative sample?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by VetLegion
It is not. That's quite easy to test actually. Very popular type of "experiment" in this field is to look at twins or adopted children.

If IQ was easy to raise, that is - if it was determined solely or mostly by environment, then adopted children in a family should have similar IQs to children born to the adopting parents. They are raised in the same conditions after all.

I haven't heard of a study that found that, and plenty have been done.

Then you can't read, because most studies find IQ is only ~50% inherited.

(No, this doesn't mean that IQ is 50% environmental, I know.)

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Not necessarily...see my reply to Dinodoc.



Because of your interactions? Do you feel you have a representative sample?

Well, considering that none of my more than incidental interactions (with africans or african americans) have been with people whose IQ I would judge to be noticeably below 100. (below say 90)

It can't be that there is a huge divide, and a lot of people have IQs in the normal range, and the rest have IQs that are so low that the average is in the 60-70s. I mean, that would require a biological seperation in communities that just doesn't exist.

JM

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Well, considering that none of my more than incidental interactions (with africans or african americans) have been with people whose IQ I would judge to be noticeably below 100. (below say 90)

I don't know if you've studied statistics, but to gain any knowledge about the attributes of a population you need first to have a representative sample.

It can't be that there is a huge divide, and a lot of people have IQs in the normal range, and the rest have IQs that are so low that the average is in the 60-70s. I mean, that would require a biological seperation in communities that just doesn't exist.

JM

Are you referring to a biological separation between blacks with different IQs or separation between blacks and the rest of the world?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Back in 1994, the Wall Street Journal published an editorial titled "Mainstream Science on Intelligence" which shows that ideas on intelligence that are popularly portrayed as "discredited" by the media, are actually agreed upon by a large chunk of academic intelligence experts. This is why we see people who know little to nothing about intelligence working themselves into a righteous lather over statements that are far less controversial among experts.

Quoted For Truth.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I don't know if you've studied statistics, but to gain any knowledge about the attributes of a population you need first to have a representative sample.

I am freinds with enough african americans, from a varied enough background, that I have a representative sample.

Additionally, yes, I have studied statistics.

And it is easy to give evidence against a 3+ sigma claim.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Are you referring to a biological separation between blacks with different IQs or separation between blacks and the rest of the world?

Biological separation between people with african ethnic heritage with different IQs, obviously.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I don't think you recognize what an average of 60-70 would mean...

JM

[Kuciwalker]

Yeah, that kind of average has to be the result of a biased test. 60-70 is mentally retarded.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Caligastia
I don't know if you've studied statistics, but to gain any knowledge about the attributes of a population you need first to have a representative sample.

JM is a physicist, he's studied more statistics than you ever will