Evil Finn?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
---
That said, any IQ difference between the West and the rest of the world is almost certainly due to environmental factors.

Actually, according to a book I've read, quoting the regular tests conducted on millions of US army candidates:

Average IQ of East Asians (Japan, Korea, China, etc) ~105, average IQ of Kaukasians ~100, average IQ of Africans ~80, dispersed along a wide bell curve within each group. (The exact figures are quoted from memory and may not be 100% correct, but close enough).

On the other hand, assuming IQ has some influence on the status a person gain in his/her society, there might be some Social-Darwinist ways to explain why tests show large differences in IQ between the races within USA. The following assumptions are my own, based on statistics I've only read in secondary sources, but which I have no reasons to doubt the accuracy of. It might give an explanation of the US Army data without ruling out that the average IQ of all races is actually the same on a global level (but not inside USA)

- The European immigrants came from all parts of their society. Everybody and his brother moved to America. So an average whitey has an average IQ.

- The Africans who went to America where generally slaves, quite often captured and sold to Europeans by other Africans, which means they were not the cream of their society to begin with. And those genes passed on to the population today.

- Asians in America are generally entrepreneurs and top-rated students who immigrated becauce of the greater economical opportunities offered over there. So there should be no surprise if they have a higher average IQ.

[Chemical Ollie]

Professor Vanhanen wouldn't last long in PC paradise Sweden. 10 minutes after his thoughts/theories were published in mainstream media, his own son would sack him from his position as a professor. Anything else would have been political suicide.

Personally, I say I believe him, until I read a report that publishes statistics to counter the previosly published data and a good explaination why the previous data where wrong. So far I have seen a lot of opinions why the previous data was wrong, but no new data to back up such claims.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie


Actually, according to a book I've read, quoting the regular tests conducted on millions of US army candidates: IQ of East Asians (Japan, Korea, China, etc) ~105, IQ of Kaukasians ~100, IQ of Africans ~80. (The exact figures are quoted from memory and may not be 100% correct, but close enough).

85 for the African-Americans.

On the other hand, assuming IQ has some influence on the status a person gain in his/her society, there might be some Social-Darwinist ways to explain why tests show large differences in IQ between the races within USA. The following assumptions are my own, based on statistics I've only read in secondary sources, but which I have no reasons to doubt the accuracy of.

- The European immigrants came from all parts of their society. Everybody and his brother moved to America. So an average whitey has an average IQ.

- The Africans who went to America where generally slaves, quite often captured and sold to Europeans by other Africans, which means they were not the cream of their society to begin with. And those genes passed on to the population today.

- Asians in America are generally entrepreneurs and top-rated students who immigrated becauce of the greater economical opportunities offered over there. So there should be no surprise if they have a higher average IQ.

Good assumptions, IMO. The slave theory could be tested by doing IQ tests on recent African immigrants who are voluntary, or even better, their children. The theory would predict that once they are well fed, they would have higher IQs than descendants of slaves. Given that IQ tests are sensitive political subject, I'm not holding my breath that someone is going to do such a study. But conclusions can probably be drawn from other existing data.

[Jon Miller]

Note that 85 is far far more beleivable then 60-70. Not saying that it is true, or independent of social factors.

Unless I see a study that is independent of social factors, I am not going to beleive that it says anything about racial differences.

JM

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


JM is a physicist, he's studied more statistics than you ever will

Then he should know why his experiences with people of African descent are statistically meaningless.

[Jon Miller]

I maintain that you don't recognize what an average of 60-70 would mean.

And I go to a black church, I have a more representative sample then you would think.

JM

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Gentle reader; balance this quote-

Originally posted by Caligastia
That's your problem Laz: you're very emotionally invested in your opinion, and I don't believe you make a genuine effort to read the other side of the argument - other than to try and find ways to shoot it down. Your mind is made up.

...with this one.

If some way of raising Black IQ is found then I will be all for it. I have grave doubts that this can be easily done, but if it can I will be as happy as the next man.

The links I posted actually detailed a number of ways. But apparently it's the other guy who doesn't "make a genuine effort to read the other side of the argument".

Can one really present one's case as clinical detachment when one's reaction to several well-documented research articles (as opposed to the one anonymous opinion piece Cal posted) appears to be to stick one's fingers in one's ears and go "LALALALALAICAN'THEARYOULALALALA!!"

Go post some of your articles, Cal. I'm always ready to read them, so don't be coy.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
- The Africans who went to America where generally slaves, quite often captured and sold to Europeans by other Africans, which means they were not the cream of their society to begin with. And those genes passed on to the population today.

The huge drawback with this Social Darwinist theorising is that it requires the reader to wear blinkers over the fact that history throws up copious examples of cases where the "elite" wielding power over the masses clearly weren't their superiors from any intellecual or physical genetic viewpoint. As any "Historical Filth" reader will be well aware.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Then he should know why his experiences with people of African descent are statistically meaningless.

You have, on numerous occasions, used your own experiences with Black people to justify your own racial theories. It's hypocrisy to deny others the same right, should they choose to.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Here are a couple more links- these ones looking at results suggesting that gap between black and white average IQ results is shrinking.

http://www.thorainstitute.com/2007/04/are-black-iqs-rising.html

http://record.wustl.edu/archive/1997/11-06-97/7682.html

[Winston]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Here are a couple more links- these ones looking at results suggesting that gap between black and white average IQ results is shrinking.

You're saying there's a gap!? What are you, an evil sack of Finnish hammers or something?

I thought you'd gotten your very own subforum anyway..

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Feel free to join in the debate any time you've got something relevant to add, Winston. That time doesn't appear to be now, but I remain optimistic.

[Winston]

That was relevant, and highly so. Though I don't expect you to openly acknowledge it, in effect, you just committed to the same line of reasoning that you were lambasting in the OP.

Now there's a sorry sack of nail-abusing tools.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

No I didn't.

Average IQ test results on black people in the developed world have traditionally been lower than those of white people. This is a statement of fact. You'll notice I'm not arguing that.

What I have argued is Professor Vanhanen's contention that only non-Africans can solve Africa's economic problems, due to the (alleged) lower intelligence of Africans.

I have also been merrily arguing against notions that the disparity in IQ results is due to the genetic intellectual inferiority of black people, by highlighting the significant effects of environmental factors, and the news that the gap in the results is shrinking.

So if you're going to claim that I'm using the same line of thinking as Professor Vanhanen, I'm going to conclude that you either haven't been reading this thread, or haven't been understanding it.

[Winston]

Yeah, yeah.

That was hardly the intended gist of that remarkably short and sweet OP of yours - "Evil Finn? Or just dumber than a sack of hammers?" - nor was it the impression one would take away from your subsequent rather bluntly expressed aversions directed at anyone who thought that a gap did in fact exist.

But as long as you're right. About 3 year old news stories that never amounted to anything. Brilliant showing.