Evil Finn?

[Jon Miller]

I thought that was proven false long ago.

The intelligent people I know come from families of average wealth, and many come from poor families.

The only issue is that poverty makes it harder to take advantage of your intelligence.

JM

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Any rise is still a rise.

The point being that IQ is influenced by environment. Oh look! We're back where we started!

Not necessary. You see, if he's overlooking the Flynn effect coupled with the recent higher rises of black IQ score results, in favour of an "inherent inferiority" argument he has no genetic evidence of, and using highly dubious methods of obtaining his data, I stand by the contention that he's evil or stupid.

You have no way of knowing whether this is the case or not until you read his books. Until then I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Caligastia


The point being that IQ is influenced by environment. Oh look! We're back where we started!

Yes, and wasn't it pointless to argue the point with me if you accepted thar from the start? It's easy to raise IQ scores. I was right all along.

You have no way of knowing whether this is the case or not until you read his books. Until then I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

So you think that the main cause for African economic problems is the low IQ of black people?

Here's an equivalent piece of reasoning. Most people who blow off their own heads with gelignite are found to be dead. Therefore death is the major cause of blowing one's head of with gelignite.

Can you see the flaw in the reasoning, or are you willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until you've read my book on the subject?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


Yes, and wasn't it pointless to argue the point with me if you accepted thar from the start? It's easy to raise IQ scores. I was right all along.

Saying "it's easy to raise IQ scores" is a bit different from accepting that environment affects IQ. Your statement gives the impression that anyone can get any IQ score they want if they only put in a little bit of practice - which isn't true.

So you think that the main cause for African economic problems is the low IQ of black people?

I can't say for sure if it's the main cause or not, but I think it's highly likely to be a factor of significance. However, if I'm shown concrete evidence of genetic intellectual equality I'm prepared to change my mind.

Here's an equivalent piece of reasoning. Most people who blow off their own heads with gelignite are found to be dead. Therefore death is the major cause of blowing one's head of with gelignite.

Can you see the flaw in the reasoning, or are you willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until you've read my book on the subject?

The reasoning is far from equivilent. Your statement is absurd on its face, whereas the statement regarding genes is at the very least plausible.

Let's go back to the statement you made a few posts ago, that you said you were comfortable with:

You see, if he's overlooking the Flynn effect coupled with the recent higher rises of black IQ score results, in favour of an "inherent inferiority" argument he has no genetic evidence of, and using highly dubious methods of obtaining his data, I stand by the contention that he's evil or stupid.

Note my bold. I actually agree with the statement as quoted, but only because of the one crucial change you made from your OP. Without knowing what he's addressed in his books, it's hardly fair to make assumptions based on a simple statement in a news article and then proceed to call him evil or stupid.

[VetLegion]

The Flynn effect was not overlooked by the authors of "IQ and the wealth of nations". They've adjusted each and every IQ test they use for the Flynn effect.

[Caligastia]

From an Amazon review of the book:

It appears likely that some combination of malnutrition, disease, inbreeding, lack of education, lack of mental stimulation, lack of familiarity with abstract reasoning and so forth can keep people from reaching their genetic potential for IQ. Lynn himself did early studies demonstrating that malnutrition drives down IQ. The co-authors conclude their book by recommending that

"The rich countries' economic aid programs for the poor countries should be continued and some of these should be directed at attempting to increase the intelligence levels of the populations of the poorer countries by improvements in nutrition and the like."

RACIST BASTARDS!

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Anyone else think that adverse climate, poor soils, endemic diseases, natural geological hazards, lack of easily-accessible and locatable resources, the relatively recent establishment of the nation in question, shortages of suitable livestock, hostile neighbours, lack of accountability in governments largely inherited as colonial hangovers, and a long history of exploitation by more developed nations might just be more credible factors?

Adverse climate: is Finnish climate hospitable?
Poor soils: are Finland's soils rich? Or Swiss?
Endemic diseases: many are endemic because of poor organization, not lack of cure
Natural geological hazards: like earthquakes in Japan?
Lack of resources: like that for which Japan started a war?
Recent establishment of nations: Slovenia was established in 1991 and seems to be going strong
Shortage of livestock: who cares about livestock?
Hostile neighbours: like those Israel has?
Former colonies: like Hong Kong?
History of exploatation: like Vietnam?

[RGBVideo]

Re: Evil Finn?

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Or just dumber than a sack of hammers?

You know, first you viciously attack him from saying that there's a difference between IQ's of different races without offering any alternative theory.

Here are a couple more links- these ones looking at results suggesting that gap between black and white average IQ results is shrinking.

Then you say exactly the same thing later in the same freaking thread. Great job.

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
...

This is rich. Not only you're claiming that a group of people you personally know (anecdotal evidence) from a geographically limited area is statistically meaningful, you're also fighting study which researched IQs with your "observations" or what you guess the anecdotal evidence's IQ to be based on their behaviour.

Reading this thread is like reading a troll thread. Why are otherwise reasonable posters suddenly running towards such obvious and basic mistakes in argumentation and logic? Why are they trying to seriously replace researched facts with their own prejudices?

[Kuciwalker]

This is rich. Not only you're claiming that a group of people you personally know (anecdotal evidence) from a geographically limited area is statistically meaningful

It is statistically meaningful.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Re: Re: Evil Finn?

Originally posted by VJ

You know, first you viciously attack him from saying that there's a difference between IQ's of different races without offering any alternative theory.


Then you say exactly the same thing later in the same freaking thread. Great job.

Go back and read the thread again, VJ. There are limits to the number of times I'm willing to correct people for making the exact same dumb error you did.

You weren't the first, but I hope to God you'll be the last- or I may lose all hope for our future as a species.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by VetLegion
The Flynn effect was not overlooked by the authors of "IQ and the wealth of nations". They've adjusted each and every IQ test they use for the Flynn effect.

But Prof. Vanhahahahahahaha seems to have overlooked it in his pronouncement that only Europeans and Asians can save Africa. Which brings us, once more, to the start of the thread.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Q

Originally posted by Caligastia


Saying "it's easy to raise IQ scores" is a bit different from accepting that environment affects IQ. Your statement gives the impression that anyone can get any IQ score they want if they only put in a little bit of practice - which isn't true.

I accept no responsibility for the poor reading comprehension skills of others, which leads them them to draw conclusions that do not logically follow from what I write.

I can't say for sure if it's the main cause or not, but I think it's highly likely to be a factor of significance. However, if I'm shown concrete evidence of genetic intellectual equality I'm prepared to change my mind.

What about if, 20 years from now, they haven't found the "Black dumbness" gene? Or 50 years?

Will you be crying "Keep looking, you fools! It must be there!"?

Note my bold. I actually agree with the statement as quoted, but only because of the one crucial change you made from your OP. Without knowing what he's addressed in his books, it's hardly fair to make assumptions based on a simple statement in a news article and then proceed to call him evil or stupid.

You can restrict yourself to not commenting on anyone before you've read their life's work, if you wish.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Adverse climate: is Finnish climate hospitable?
Poor soils: are Finland's soils rich? Or Swiss?
Endemic diseases: many are endemic because of poor organization, not lack of cure

And others aren't.

Finland doesn't have malaria or tstse fly. Strike up an advantage,

Natural geological hazards: like earthquakes in Japan?

Earthquakes are a piece of pee-pee in comparison to s really angry volcano, or desertification.

Strike up another advantage for Finland, incidentally.

Lack of resources: like that for which Japan started a war?

By which point they were already industrialised, of course. Strike up another advantage for Japan and Finland.

Recent establishment of nations: Slovenia was established in 1991 and seems to be going strong

Helped by a massive head start in terms of industrialisation, of course. Incidentally strike up another (small) advantage for Finland.

Shortage of livestock: who cares about livestock?

People with stomachs. People needing things lugged about. Exotic needs like that.

Hostile neighbours: like those Israel has?
Former colonies: like Hong Kong?
History of exploatation: like Vietnam?

You'll see that a nation can cope with one or two of these factors and still do well. If they have all or most of them, it's a different story.

[Blaupanzer]

Finns at 97 are below average for Caucasions.

Africans at 60 to 70 would be borderline idiots, nonfunctional in most environments. Clearly every single person in Africa does not fit those definitions. Thus a large number must be drooling fools to offset all the ones at 80 or higher. This is clearly nonsense.

Stating that the only way to improve the lot of exploited Africans is to import leaders who are white or Asian smacks of fundamental racism. That the scores do diverge is a fact of modern life; but the scores range over a bell curve. I cannot believe that the median for that curve for blacks in Africa is between 60 and 70 (indicating serious retardation). Therefore the man advocating this position is either ignorant or evil. The good Dr. V is obviously not ignorant, as he is a researcher and writer in the field of human intelligence. Thus he must be an evil Finn.

He can't be fired as he is a professor emeritus, i.e., he is retired. I think we would be wise to let him take his nasty theory with him to the obscurity he so richly deserves.