Evil Finn?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Yep. As long as I'm right.

[Winston]

Man, you almost crack me up sometimes. If it wasn't for the feelings of pity you elicit by trying to argue just about anything, I swear you'd make it every time.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Winston
You're saying there's a gap!? What are you, an evil sack of Finnish hammers or something?

Do you understand the implications of what he said? It doesn't seem so, otherwise you would have realized how meaningless this attack is.

[Kuciwalker]

Winston, you're an idiot. Don't turn your hatred of Laz into even more stupidity.

[Japher]

What I have argued is Professor Vanhanen's contention that only non-Africans can solve Africa's economic problems, due to the (alleged) lower intelligence of Africans.

So, you are saying that higher intelligence can emerge from the cesspool of lower intelligence that is Africa? In a sense I agree. That those of higher intelligence do exist within Africa. However, they will be over shadowed, misunderstood, oppressed by their dumber, gun totting, I don't give a crap leaders. It even required Mandela to get a western education and then years of prison time to drive the truth into them. Western influence, western thought, western intervention. I will not say "white", but non-African.

It's the same crap we see in the slums in "civilized" society; gang violence, drugs, unprotected sex. Only it's magnified to the national scale. Those ppl (yeah, I said it) don't respect a notion of subtle peacefulness, the long for the power figure that can smash their enemies over a Ghandi or a Buddah. And, when you want that, when the society wants that, you get a Patton not an Eisenhower. IMO, this is a matter not so much of IQ but of the society. They are save so long as the one they follow can kill their enemies... Sad actually, and is something that can't be fixed by those without outside help. At least we haven't seen it work yet. Look at the Ivory Coast for example.

I have also been merrily arguing against notions that the disparity in IQ results is due to the genetic intellectual inferiority of black people, by highlighting the significant effects of environmental factors, and the news that the gap in the results is shrinking.

I'm sure you've seen those studies that point out how the male child has been left behind (educational wise) in elementary schools since the focus has been moved to bring the female student up to par. The point of those stories is that there is a huge difference in teaching style the effectively reaches the different sexes. Genetics? Yes. Laz has given us proof that chemicals and teaching styles produce results in downs kids. I have seen studies that show that the use of naltrexone helps autistic kids. My point? These things; these needs for changes in teaching styles, chemicals that repress/increase stimuli, all of them exist because of genetic requirements. Those things aren't required because of environmental influences, thus they have to be genetics. Can a black person from Africa get the same grade on a test as white dude from NY? Yes, but the circumstances required to do so need to be different, and unless we recognize this we will always have black kids practicing their hook shoot before their times tables.

My point; the environment needs to be tailored to the genetic disposition of the student in order to help them be more learned. That environment doesn't exist in Africa, thus the Evil Finn's comments hold weight, IMO.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

The flaws in your argument follow-

1- Equating IQ test results with intelligence is a minefield all in itself.

2- Even if we accept that IQ test results can be used as a conclusive marker of intelligence, one has to consider the fact that the Evil Finn's (I'm not being inflammatory here. He's Finnish. QED) methods of obtaining data in the 3rd world were very far from conclusive. There's a summary of the pros and cons on the Wiki site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_...lth_of_Nations

3- I see no recognition of the fact that the African nations almost all are, in historical terms, juveniles. Very few nations were established and stabilised without extensive violence and economic instability in the first few generations, so why should we damn Africans for the same problems we forgave in ourselves?

4-

These things; these needs for changes in teaching styles, chemicals that repress/increase stimuli, all of them exist because of genetic requirements. Those things aren't required because of environmental influences, thus they have to be genetics.

I see no evidence of how you're managing to successfully exclude environmental factors from genetic ones in reaching this conclusion. As it stands, it's a bald assertion.

[Blake]

I think that a lot of things probably effect intelligence, such as:
Avoiding harmful environmental factors (drugs, smoke)
Good Nutrition
Stimuli
Encouragement to learn

And
Perception/Experience.

People tend to believe what they're told. If they're told they're stupid, they tend to believe it, act that way and even be that way. Grow up in a culture of stupidity, be stupid. The human mind has a tremendous ability to do this, I BET you could hypnotize someone to score lower in tests (ie a suggestion that they'll get answers wrong).

I think that genetics does determine potential, but that's about all.
As an analogy, the average height of humans is increasing in developed nations. Height obviously has a strong genetic basis, genetics are obviously not changing, it's just people are better able to reach their potential height due to a more ideal environment.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Winston, you're an idiot. Don't turn your hatred of Laz into even more stupidity.

I've never seen you make a meaningful contribution to a debate, only oneliner insults.

How do I formally put you on ignore?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

In fairness, the only thing standing in the way of your own post falling into the same category was the presence of a line break.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by VetLegion
I've never seen you make a meaningful contribution to a debate, only oneliner insults.

How do I formally put you on ignore?

Control panel, ignore list, type my name in one of the boxes, hit update. Goodbye

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
The links I posted actually detailed a number of ways. But apparently it's the other guy who doesn't "make a genuine effort to read the other side of the argument".

Can one really present one's case as clinical detachment when one's reaction to several well-documented research articles (as opposed to the one anonymous opinion piece Cal posted) appears to be to stick one's fingers in one's ears and go "LALALALALAICAN'THEARYOULALALALA!!"

Your links show that IQ is influenced by environmental factors (hardly news), and you seem to be extrapolating this to mean that black IQ levels can easily be raised to white levels. And you are so sure of this that anyone who says otherwise must be either evil or stupid - yet you accuse me of lacking clinical detachment. I'm not the one who started a thread about how evil or stupid someone is.

Go post some of your articles, Cal. I'm always ready to read them, so don't be coy.

Why should I bother when you practically ignored the article I already posted. I responded to what you posted about it, but you've ignored that too.

I've posted a couple of other related links in this thread too, but apparently I'm being coy.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp



You have, on numerous occasions, used your own experiences with Black people to justify your own racial theories. It's hypocrisy to deny others the same right, should they choose to.

I assume you're referring to high black crime rates? Only you would refer to that as a theory, and there's a world of difference between that and what Jon is doing.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Here are a couple more links- these ones looking at results suggesting that gap between black and white average IQ results is shrinking.

http://www.thorainstitute.com/2007/04/are-black-iqs-rising.html

http://record.wustl.edu/archive/1997/11-06-97/7682.html

And you view these articles (no data) as proof positive that intelligence is completely environmentally influenced? And again, you're so sure of this that anyone who believes otherwise is evil or stupid, right?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I assume you're referring to high black crime rates? Only you would refer to that as a theory, and there's a world of difference between that and what Jon is doing.

What am I doing?

I have been asked to beleive a result that places certain limits because of probability. I can say that not only has everything I have seen not been even close to the stated results, but I have evidence that is far enough from the stated results so as to make them rediculous.

JM

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


What am I doing?

I have been asked to beleive a result that places certain limits because of probability. I can say that not only has everything I have seen not been even close to the stated results, but I have evidence that is far enough from the stated results so as to make them rediculous.

JM

How can you be sure that your estimates of people's IQ are accurate? Have you ever tested your ability to estimate someone's IQ?