For the homosexuals:

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by molly bloom
So is being addressed as 'dude'. This isn't a ranch and I'm not wearing cowboy gear or living in the 70s.

I forgot, you don't wear cowboy hats. Your head is too big...

You have a black shiny gentleman's hat, and a binocular, like dem edumecated people in europe... What ever.

Could you stop shining with self importance?
It only makes you appear like you have less to back your words with.

Not only is it a 'bad' question in terms of framing, but it is also bad from its 'intent'- as I perceived it, not only from the poster's original framing, but having read previous posts of his (on Muslims, on people with H.I.V. and A.I.D.S.) and follow up posts of his with the same theme in a different thread.

Wonderful.
So EoN is evil. Let's throw rocks at him.

He repeatedly confuses and conflates what is natural, that is originating solely in nature or from natural causes, with what is manufactured and artificial- the 'norms' set by societies and cultures.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the fact that most advanced species on earth procreate using sexual contact between a male and a female, is merely an artificial norm, and not at all part of a biological evolutionary process.

In any case, be the norm of being hetero or homosexual, the question stands.

Did they change their genes ? No.

They didn't.

Is it illegal in Israel to be Jewish ? Will you be killed by fellow Jews for being Jewish or exhibiting what they perceive to be overt Jewishness?

Will you face discrimination in employment, housing, education, inheritance rights, powers of attorney from Jews for being Jewish ?

I was referring to the 30-40s in germany, and the 40s - 70s in Arabic countries, where Jews were persecuted, disowned of their property and often killed.

We can choose to be dishonest with ourselves, our families, our fellow pupils, our neighbours, our friends and our employers and employees.

It is not a price worth paying.

Which is exactly the question of this thread.

Religion is a choice, but it is an artificial construct.

And gender is not?

You can choose to wear brown contact lenses, but it won't make your blue eyes change their colour.

Again a very good question for a followup thread. Would your rather have been born blue eyed. Very good on that

I'm not quite sure why all or any of Poly's gay or lesbian posters need to be offended for yoru edification or entertainment.

I would have thought that my education and edification would be a very good reason for gay people to answer slightly uncomfortable questions, if that means I'll understand them better.

If I started up a thread that said 'Hey K!kes- why not be gentiles ?' I'd expect:

a) to be banned

b) to be pilloried by any Jewish poster or any Poly poster with good sense.

You know very well that this thread was not labeled "******s and ****s - come clean", but used mostly non-offending language.

And you also know very well, that if a thread would have come up asking Jewish posters if they'd rather be gentiles, you'd receive a better serious answers to insults ratio.

I have yet to see the thread which asks heterosexuals to 'explain themselves'. It is incredibly patronising to be viewed just as one's sexuality or as an example of psycho-pathology.

Heterosexuals don't need a reason to explain themselves too much, since they're following what has been common for most advanced species on earth.

Still, you would no doubt have seen an infulx of answers in a thread titled "would you have liked to be born gay?".

I feel no desire to 'explain' my citizenship, my hair colouring or my height.

Maybe if you would, people would understand you more and hate you less. As simple as that.

You're being all politically correct, instead of practical. Your answering of weird questions will only promote tolerance.

The practical situation is that most heteros have no idea what is it like to be gay, neither from a sexual p.o.v, nor from a 'how am i being treated by society" p.o.v.

I was born that way- I'm of Irish descent and 5 foot 6. That's a recipe for conflict.

Well then take control of yourself and try to see my intent, instead of attacking me.

*insert random joke about aggressiveness compensating for height*

Enough with the learned rabbi schtick.
If you think that's me being aggressive you must have been brought up by Quakers.

If you don't want to be treated what you mistakenly perceive to be 'roughly', then don't say things like this for openers:

Who's insulting whom ?

[...]

Because of poor formatting! Boo hoo.

The Rennie Mackintosh font in purple and gold slipped my mind, as did the Jugendstil border and decorative putti.

What did you want- boustrophedon and bullet points ?

Funny how you blame me of being over sensitive and then go on to make a scene about a small remark I made about your posting style.

less

line

breaks

would

be

sufficient

Fabulous! I'm molly, let's have falafels.
Wunderbar!
I'll fit that in next blue moon, which will be occurring on the Twelfth Of Never.

If you continue acting like a pompous jerk, no one will stop you.

The most I can do is repeat why I think your attitude sucks.

So why should I value your opinion more highly than anyone else's, or indeed my own ?

You shouldn't.
You this does not, however, entitle you to be utterly dismissive of anything anyone posts, which you happen to hold an opinion about.

Hurrah! And we all know how wonderfully well assimilation turned out for the Jews of Europe too.

No amount of David Geffens or Elton Johns will stop families disowning their own children because of their bigotry.

Yes it will.

Because it shows people that gay people are normal, and that they are not 'freaks' but rather a very prevalent minority.

The amount of openness to gay people, and the amount of gay people in the media in Israel is doing wonders to the attitude to gays, even in the rabid-orthodox society.

If you compare popular opinion as it were 15 years ago and today, there's a huge increase in tolerance, that I will credit mostly to the media.

Oh lord. Does Israel routinely carry scare stories in its newspapers about having to be on the lookout for Jews snatching gentile children for blood for making matzos ?

No, that would be in the Muslim media. For all your comments on how fabulous it is to have all these movie stars and musicians coming out, that doesn't prevent mainstream media exploiting stories about lesbians and gay men based purely on prejudice and stereotyping.

So what is your point?
Are you defensive because of anti-gay media in muslim countries?

Or maybe your country's mainstream media is much worse than I thought.

Except for small ultra-religious publications, the Israeli mainstream media is very gay tolerant, and has been very supportive of gay rights. The Israeli public is mostly quite a liberal one, and the newspapers are very much so.

Only relatively recently have well-known figures dared to admit what has been obvious to a few, and even now there are an awful lot of locked closets.

Yes, and that is improving greatly, at least here.

No, some legislatures, politicians and religious organisations have worked to make homsexuality illegal and propagandize vigorously against gays and lesbians, and even in more enlightened countries work to curtail the civil rights of lebsians and gay men.

well I'm glad to live in one of the more englightened countries in the world, it appears.

Being asked about my sexuality as if that was either the most important part of me or the most relevant, is a tad irritating, as are the erroneous assumptions behind the original question.

Consider that I've been dealing with that sort of misconception and prejudice since my teens and I'm now 44, and that Poly is one of the places where one can usually avoid such idiocy, and I think I have a right to be somewhat aggrieved.

Alright.Finally something we can address.

I think that you are wrong to relate to the issue in the same way that you would have 20 years ago. A lot has changed. Perhaps not in EoN's intentions but certainly in those of most of the public.

And being asked about your sexuality, and having a chance to explain that, is IMO actually a good thing. Your sexuality, and issues surrounding it are NOT easy to comprehend for those that don't face these issues.

I've had a gay friend who actually encouraged me to ask anything I want (obviously that felt odd), so that I'd be better educated on the issue. Think of it this way - the more answers I get from you, the less I'll be prone to fall victim to hateful bigotted opinion.

Obviously you have a disposition to be aggressive about it, but you should rethink that.

Is it Jews who mostly get annoyed at the defensiveness, or non-Jews ?

obviously mostly non-jews.
but I see their point, and agree with it.

The basic assumption, sans evidence, that my sexuality is a natural 'defect'.

Whether it has or not, it certainly more difficult to be gay, than to be straight. Which is why the original question has merit, whether it is insulting or not.

And in any case, it shouldn't matter whether it is a defect or not.

You're implying that if you're called a defect then you are then put in second class category, or even threatened. It was the case when you were younger. I think it is certainly not the prevalent attitude these days.

You're being absurd. People aren't murdered because they were born blond, or have their funerals picketed because of their blondness, or are estranged from their families because of their hair colour.

So what's the point?
Making any discussion of being gay taboo?

Some people are murdered cause they were born gay. Some cause they were born female. Some cause they were born with various genetic problems.

Does it mean that discussion of heated issues should stop?

Imagine a chinese woman that has been thrown out to the streets when she was young, because a couple could only have a single child, so they preferred a male. Asking her if she would rather have been born a male is a very tense question. But it is interesting none the less.

That's a lovely opinion you have there. With £3.50 you can buy a cappuccino.

Wow, you are over-charged for cappucino on a daily basis.
No wonder you're edgy.

Physician, heal thyself.

right... you're welcome to ask a 3rd party what they think of this discussion.

Anyways, with some luck, between one retort to the next, I managed to get worthwhile answers and understand you better.

You still should work on your style though.

[Elok]

Yeah, I was wondering about that cappucino price. I don't drink coffee so I wouldn't know, but with one Brit pound working out to slightly less than $2 American (IIRC), that's a pricey beverage.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Siro,

Let it go. Molly is who molly is.

The unalterable rule of online posting is that people do not change especially in the face of online criticism.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Siro,

Let it go. Molly is who molly is.

The unalterable rule of online posting is that people do not change especially in the face of online criticism.

Hey, I try to change.

I would usually not have said anything and ignored it. But since the whole Asher-LOTM incident, I decided that if I have an opinion about a poster's style, I will tell him that. I told Asher what I think. And I told LOTM what I think in countless threads and PMs.

To some extent it is possible that LOTM no longer likes me, and frankly I haven't seen him lately. I hope that isn't the case.

A great deal of polytubbies (myself included) are of very high opinion of themselves, and that leads to their posts being disrespectful and lashing out at other posters.

Notice how easily someone was calling you stupid in the Iraq thread.

I'm trying to do this less myself, and I'm definitely going to say something about

[MrFun]

Originally posted by molly bloom


We can choose to be dishonest with ourselves, our families, our fellow pupils, our neighbours, our friends and our employers and employees.

It is not a price worth paying.

Indeed; and the the more gays and lesbians who are out to their families and friends, the greater chances of our struggle for equal rights become.

Not to mention that a person who is true to him/herself about anything important, not just sexual orientation, will have less pyschological/emotional problems than those who continue to live a constricted life in denial, or leading a double-life.

Originally posted by molly bloom
I have yet to see the thread which asks heterosexuals to 'explain themselves'. It is incredibly patronising to be viewed just as one's sexuality or as an example of psycho-pathology.

I feel no desire to 'explain' my citizenship, my hair colouring or my height.

QFT

Indeed, I look forward to the day when there is nothing special or peculiar about my being gay.

[Sirotnikov]

QFT

Indeed, I look forward to the day when there is nothing special or peculiar about my being gay.

the more you talk about it now, the closer that day will be, mate.

That is why i think this thread can be of service.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Elok
Yeah, I was wondering about that cappucino price. I don't drink coffee so I wouldn't know, but with one Brit pound working out to slightly less than $2 American (IIRC), that's a pricey beverage.

I've just posted a coffee-price thread.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168090

[SpencerH]

Mmmmm, falafels :drool:

[Ben Kenobi]

I wouldn't trust your list.

Ceylon, or Sri Lanka as it's known to most humans these days, has been famous for its Buddhism since antiquity.

It's from Wikipedia, that tremendously anti-gay biased source.

True, but it has a significant Muslim minority, as does India. Point well taken though, and it shouldn't be on the list of Muslim countries.

Feel free to nitpick, but I don't see you contesting the majority of the list or disputing the facts as they stand.

[Ben Kenobi]

To show that albeit Christians may be morons, Muslims are bigger morons.

Calling molly's bluff. I didn't believe he had any intent on posting a comprehensive list let alone exploring the nature of the hostility between Islam and homosexuality.

True, the general label is that Christians are bigots and what not, but the question arises. If Christians and Muslims are of one mind on this topic, as religious bigots, why is it that they have such a disparity in how they treat gay people?

Secondly, if your primary goal is to ensure that gay people are treated as equals, why is it that the focus is on gay marriage in the West and not on these muslim countries that kill people for being gay? It makes no sense to me. My guess is that gay people really don't care about what Muslims do and believe, which is why we don't hear the outcry from the steeples about the oppressive nature of Mauritania and the despicable acts of the Muslims in Iran or the Imams in Saudi Arabia.

Or perhaps it is because the West actually cares about freedom, and can be influenced? If so then that's an interesting concession. I've yet to see any gay person, here or elsewhere complain about the Muslim attitudes about homosexuality, yet they always seem to call Christians bigots.

[Provost Harrison]

Both of the religions advocate persecution of homosexuals in their sacred texts. Next...

[Ben Kenobi]

Which is why Christian majority countries everywhere string up gay people and hang them?

[Provost Harrison]

No, because Christian majority countries tend to be secular states.

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
No, because Christian majority countries tend to be secular states.

While Christian countries have a history of discrimination of homosexuals, homosexuality are not a capital offence. In Islamic countries otoh, it is.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Elok

While I consider the very idea of gay sex repellent, I can see advantages to being gay. For one thing, you would have a much easier time understanding how your partner thinks, and presumably gays are a lot less clumsy in bed, since they're familiar with all the equipment (remember that episode of Seinfeld?).

Clumsy in bed? Maybe you need more practice with members of the opposite sex