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Yes RUFUS! Of course it was supposed to be kind of clear at this point but people get always mixed up when talking about religion.
Ben,
"Well, many people come to religion late in life when they realise that religion makes things make sense to them. I would count myself among those that certain things that do not add up make sense when you consider them from a religious perspective. In this, people without the background can learn about God and come to accept him. "
Sure. I mean we do have people who would feel this way. And we would have people who would feel the same way if they would encounter their religion as an adult the first time. Even more so, when there are people who change their religion as an adult, so that means they encountered something and have thought about their personal issues with it, otherwise there would be no transition to the other one.
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Well I know my own reaction to reading the bible at the first time at 19. I wondered why it had been kept from me for so long. Made many other things make sense to me after I read it. It was like realising this is what everyone is talking about and it was the key to unlocking so many other things that I had no clue about at all. "
Really? I didn't know that. Well, I guess you'd be a prime example of the person I described above, being really introduced as an adult. That's fair, I mean maybe you feel you should have been introduced earlier and it's always fair but I feel this should be the only way. Well, 19 is quite mature already, teenagers, even early teens is still OK IMO. I'm talking about kids aged like 0 to 12. Maybe not even 0, they don't understand anything yet so it wouldn't really matter anyway.
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Nope, that's what I did. I took it as the real truth. Maybe not at 30, but at 19. "
THat's not what I meant by truth, I meant very literal truth, also I challenge you in this, because you knew what you were reading and there was a basic setting surrounding it. In your case, it's Christianity and the Bible, so you'd have to read the Bible by yourself and not know what it is at all, you'd read it like it was da vinci code, totally unaware. Granted, you might still fall deep into it and come to the same conclusions, however, I believe it is very unlikely. Do note, this is not anti-religion blabbering, it's mostly about an issue about the indoctrination of children. I also would look at educational systems very carefully, this isn't just religion, it's everything.
But I stand corrected, the statement about every person was too much. But I think a lot, and I mean a big majority, would never buy it as anything more than just a story. So this is one of the points, that religions needs to get you as a kid first, none of this "well invite me to a party as well"-weird stuff, but more like it's a must do, otherwise you don't have but few members. THus, it has a self serving interest, to survive as an entity. Not so much is needed these days, big religions can survive, they have a draw even if no one is taught as a kid. And I still figure good things do not need promotion, I think some people in here took it the wrong way when I said this.
I was talking about aggressive recruiting. It's not unknown even if no one comes to your door or stops you or what ever, spams you. There are churches, there is literature, websites, this is all very public promotion. But as stationary and non-aggressive, I mean it's difficult to have a problem with that. But aggressive recruiting, that I do have a personal problem with, it goes for all religions, all ideas. But this is getting away from the topic itself now.
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Actually I believe that religion for the most part is rational but is also beyond rational, in that there are some things which our reason cannot comprehend. There are some parts that we can understand."
Sure it has rational parts, but if you have irrationality mixed up with rational things, the result is irrational. Depends of course what the portions are but in general, it's still irrational. Spirituality isn't necessarily irrational. Like someone said earlier, people on average might be a little happier if they have spirituality, naturally it gives them spiritual content in their lives.
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Because it is what I sincerely believe is right. I feel I have an obligation to raise my kids in the faith and to give them to which I was deprived. I don't want them to accept it because daddy said so, but because it makes sense to them. "
What you say in here is already in conflict with itself
"
All children are taught, and if they are not taught, they still learn. You can no more prevent a child from being indoctrinated then you can prevent them from soaking up the sun. The question is what are the morals and values that you are going to inculate into your children?"
Sure. However, I do not believe religions gave morality to men to begin with, so... I mean I don't necessarily disagree, all I'm saying is I'm not crediting religions for a lot of things people here do. Not that it hasn't got anything to do, it's one of the most common things, parents teaching values etc based on their religion. Is it a bad thing? Hardly, usually those values are pretty good anyway.
I think this is where monkey man Japher got his panties in a twist as well. But that's because he misunderstood my point.
Also, I am not talking about never mentioning religions, avoiding the whole subject with prejudice. Not at all. I'm nto saying that you're a bad parent if you say a prayer together before sleeping, not at all. It's much more general, the idea that you would teach a religion as truth to a child, when they still haven't developed very much at all.
Ben,
"Well, many people come to religion late in life when they realise that religion makes things make sense to them. I would count myself among those that certain things that do not add up make sense when you consider them from a religious perspective. In this, people without the background can learn about God and come to accept him. "
Sure. I mean we do have people who would feel this way. And we would have people who would feel the same way if they would encounter their religion as an adult the first time. Even more so, when there are people who change their religion as an adult, so that means they encountered something and have thought about their personal issues with it, otherwise there would be no transition to the other one.
"
Well I know my own reaction to reading the bible at the first time at 19. I wondered why it had been kept from me for so long. Made many other things make sense to me after I read it. It was like realising this is what everyone is talking about and it was the key to unlocking so many other things that I had no clue about at all. "
Really? I didn't know that. Well, I guess you'd be a prime example of the person I described above, being really introduced as an adult. That's fair, I mean maybe you feel you should have been introduced earlier and it's always fair but I feel this should be the only way. Well, 19 is quite mature already, teenagers, even early teens is still OK IMO. I'm talking about kids aged like 0 to 12. Maybe not even 0, they don't understand anything yet so it wouldn't really matter anyway.
"
Nope, that's what I did. I took it as the real truth. Maybe not at 30, but at 19. "
THat's not what I meant by truth, I meant very literal truth, also I challenge you in this, because you knew what you were reading and there was a basic setting surrounding it. In your case, it's Christianity and the Bible, so you'd have to read the Bible by yourself and not know what it is at all, you'd read it like it was da vinci code, totally unaware. Granted, you might still fall deep into it and come to the same conclusions, however, I believe it is very unlikely. Do note, this is not anti-religion blabbering, it's mostly about an issue about the indoctrination of children. I also would look at educational systems very carefully, this isn't just religion, it's everything.
But I stand corrected, the statement about every person was too much. But I think a lot, and I mean a big majority, would never buy it as anything more than just a story. So this is one of the points, that religions needs to get you as a kid first, none of this "well invite me to a party as well"-weird stuff, but more like it's a must do, otherwise you don't have but few members. THus, it has a self serving interest, to survive as an entity. Not so much is needed these days, big religions can survive, they have a draw even if no one is taught as a kid. And I still figure good things do not need promotion, I think some people in here took it the wrong way when I said this.
I was talking about aggressive recruiting. It's not unknown even if no one comes to your door or stops you or what ever, spams you. There are churches, there is literature, websites, this is all very public promotion. But as stationary and non-aggressive, I mean it's difficult to have a problem with that. But aggressive recruiting, that I do have a personal problem with, it goes for all religions, all ideas. But this is getting away from the topic itself now.
"
Actually I believe that religion for the most part is rational but is also beyond rational, in that there are some things which our reason cannot comprehend. There are some parts that we can understand."
Sure it has rational parts, but if you have irrationality mixed up with rational things, the result is irrational. Depends of course what the portions are but in general, it's still irrational. Spirituality isn't necessarily irrational. Like someone said earlier, people on average might be a little happier if they have spirituality, naturally it gives them spiritual content in their lives.
"
Because it is what I sincerely believe is right. I feel I have an obligation to raise my kids in the faith and to give them to which I was deprived. I don't want them to accept it because daddy said so, but because it makes sense to them. "
What you say in here is already in conflict with itself
"
All children are taught, and if they are not taught, they still learn. You can no more prevent a child from being indoctrinated then you can prevent them from soaking up the sun. The question is what are the morals and values that you are going to inculate into your children?"
Sure. However, I do not believe religions gave morality to men to begin with, so... I mean I don't necessarily disagree, all I'm saying is I'm not crediting religions for a lot of things people here do. Not that it hasn't got anything to do, it's one of the most common things, parents teaching values etc based on their religion. Is it a bad thing? Hardly, usually those values are pretty good anyway.
I think this is where monkey man Japher got his panties in a twist as well. But that's because he misunderstood my point.
Also, I am not talking about never mentioning religions, avoiding the whole subject with prejudice. Not at all. I'm nto saying that you're a bad parent if you say a prayer together before sleeping, not at all. It's much more general, the idea that you would teach a religion as truth to a child, when they still haven't developed very much at all.
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