Problem with religions

[Elok]

Dude, I'm asking what the hell your argument is. You're not making any sense to me. Why not teach people religion only after they've grown up? Well, it could be that we're trying to brainwash our children...or it could be that we don't want our kids to be ignorant for the first twenty or so years of their lives. They learn as they grow, that's sort of what growing's all about. This is all pretty "duh" to me.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Pekka
Lorizael, so that's another argument I'll accept. According the _some_ studies say, that humans are more happy on average than not with religion. Adn in the future, do not twist the words of studies into something they aren't, such as that humans are betrter off with religion, unless that's the exact quote, because it's different than more happy.

Unfortunately I cannot quote these studies for you, as I am lazy and at work. But the general trend, from what I remember, is that people who are strongly religious and have faith tend to rate their happiness higher than people who do not have faith do.

But do notice, that this question derives from the point, that kids accept these things easier than if they are adults, find a book of religion, you know... they won't take it as the truth, very few would. That's the point and that's the whole question about the problem so the answer is you need to get them as kids, otherwise it's going to be very difficult.

Many would view this simply as a providential opportunity. Religion cannot be proven. It requires faith. Adults have a hard time accepting things without evidence because they tend to analyze things more thoroughly. But faith is important. And religion is important. So it is simply a good practice to introduce faith when young, because that's when it can be done effectively. We should be glad humans work this way. It's rather convenient.

Now, is indoctrination by itself bad? Or is it only bad when used to make people hail hitler? Is indoctrination simply one of the effective ways of passing on abstract ideas to humans?

[Pekka]

CyberShy, surely I'm not talking about Christianity but all religions so... but it doesn't matter, you can talk from Christian point of view so no problem here.

Not sure which ones were not part of debate so I don't know whcih to comment on, but I'd be rejecting about 75% of what you just said . But not everything.

[Japher]

yeah, doesn't seem to be a problem with religion more so with indoctrination or brainwashing... Though, with Pekka, he probably doesn't mind if people brainwash their 2 year old with such knowledge to get into MENSA or whatever, but God forbid if you teach them a set of moral values.

[Pekka]

"Dude, I'm asking what the hell your argument is. You're not making any sense to me. Why not teach people religion only after they've grown up? Well, it could be that we're trying to brainwash our children...or it could be that we don't want our kids to be ignorant for the first twenty or so years of their lives. They learn as they grow, that's sort of what growing's all about. This is all pretty "duh" to me."

Oh ****, you might be the most ignorant person I've come to see here. Here's my arrogance part, I won't ignore you, I just don't care what you say from this point on. Ta-ta.
x infinity.

[Pekka]

Japher, you think moral values are the same things as religion? Well, I wouldn't call for the mensa test just yet.

Lori, That's not a valid argument because it has too many assumption, but I would accept your initial one.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Pekka
CyberShy, surely I'm not talking about Christianity but all religions so... but it doesn't matter, you can talk from Christian point of view so no problem here.

Not sure which ones were not part of debate so I don't know whcih to comment on, but I'd be rejecting about 75% of what you just said . But not everything.

Well, to be honest, I think that I agree with you for 75% as well if you talk about religion.

Religions are most of the time just a part of culture. And yes, that also counts for many christians.
But I think that in general the christian faith is not a religion in that way. (eventhough many people experience is that way)

I wouldn't be a christian if I wouldn't have believed that obviously
But like Karl Barth already said, religion is a human invention and it won't bring us to God.

Only Gods revelation can bring us to him. And I believe that christianity teaches Gods revelation. And yes, we twist his revelation with much religion as well, unfortunately

I always try to split the human religion from the divine revelation. I'm unable to do it though But I won't accept that anytime.

[Elok]

Laugh all you want, you're still utterly illucid. You're just generating a stream of disjointed statements with no argument at their core, and it's frustrating. Are you this obtuse in Finnish too, or do you just not know how to express yourself in English? Either way, quit raping my language.

[Japher]

I think the only thing a child would take away from religion is the social construct that is generated from the religion, thus, moral values. Kids do not think about consequences, the future, or really anything other than what they are doing now. Thus, they have the inability to rationalize the true grasp of religion, worship, or prayer. Religion, to a child, is nothing more than a guideline on how to behave so as not to face the wrath of mom and dad, that and a couple of good stories.

[Pekka]

CyberShy, sure. I can see where you come from (I think). In general, I don't say well you're being a bad person or whatever, it's got nothing to do with it. In general I have absolutely 0 problems in what people believe in, if they have certain faith or not, I really do not mind. The biggest issue I think religions in general has is its recruiting policies, and that's why I brought the kids.

All major religions have aggressive recruiting policies. My opinion is that you don't need to promote a religion. Why would you need to promote a good thing? You usually don't promote things that are ultimately very good, because there's just no need. Doesn't mean people wn't hear about it, just means that you won't have aggressive recruiting policy, that's all.

So, it goes without saying that people should stay out of others faces, and I just find it interesting that it is accepted as morally OK to jam religion down the kids throat as truth when they're young. NOT EVERYONE DOES THIS. But many do. Not everyone does this even if they have religious upbringing. I'm talking about parents who would go and tell tehir kids over and over again that the religious writings etc are all true, they all happened in real life, and we believe it and people who says otherwise are wrong (or even go to the.. what ever bad place is for the infidels).

[Pekka]

"Laugh all you want, you're still utterly illucid. You're just generating a stream of disjointed statements with no argument at their core, and it's frustrating. Are you this obtuse in Finnish too, or do you just not know how to express yourself in English? Either way, quit raping my language."

[Pekka]

"I think the only thing a child would take away from religion is the social construct that is generated from the religion, thus, moral values. Kids do not think about consequences, the future, or really anything other than what they are doing now. Thus, they have the inability to rationalize the true grasp of religion, worship, or prayer. Religion, to a child, is nothing more than a guideline on how to behave so as not to face the wrath of mom and dad, that and a couple of good stories."

It depends how it is "taught" of course. And what the age of the child is. I'm not saying that you are doing a bad job or saying you are brainwashing your kids personally.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Pekka
Lori, That's not a valid argument because it has too many assumption, but I would accept your initial one.

Don't call me Lori, you slut. It's not really a valid argument, but I'm only playing devil's advocate here.

I challenge you to find an adult who wasn't "indoctrinated" into something as a child. I don't think humans are rational creatures, and I don't think we're geared towards understanding things by way of our intellect; I think understanding only comes through something that cannot be expressed fully in words or logic.

Now, most things we're asked to understand have a pretty rational basis within the context of the physical universe we're presented with everyday. So it's easier for these things to make sense to us. Note that I don't think we think the world is round or that what goes up must come down because we've rationally figured these things out for ourselves, no; I simply think that these concepts are pretty intuitive and easy to get based on the physical world around us. We understand them blindly no matter what, but we take them for granted because it seems as if we can make logical connections between what we perceive about natural phenomena and what we believe about it.

Religion, on the other hand, is fantastic and does not mesh so well with what we perceive to be a mostly rational reality. So when it is indoctrinated into us, it could seem a little fishy to an outside observer. It's harder to simply get religion because it's harder to draw those logical lines between perception and belief that make understanding go smoother.

I don't have a point here, btw. This is mostly just an observation.

[Pekka]

Ok. I won't call you Lori. But I thought you were gay. Not that I'd then have to call you Lori, but I thought you wouldn't mind .

[LordShiva]

I'm the only one who's allowed to call Lori Lori.