Problem with religions

[Lorizael]

Not gay. Read some of my "HELP ME I HAVE RELATIONSHIP PROBLEMS" threads and that should become evident pretty quickly. But I did experiment when I was younger!

[Robert]

My opinion is that you don't need to promote a religion. Why would you need to promote a good thing?

Promoting a good thing is good.
Shoving good things through people's throat is a bad thing.

Jesus himself already teached us that we shouldn't continue to try to convince people who heared about christianity, but denied it. I'm sorry that we, christians keep on doing it nevertheless. That's because we're stupid people as well

But promoting a good thing, I think that I would be a horrific person if I would know about something good but wouldn't tell you about it. Even if all the good I believe in is stupid and made up, if I believe it, then I should at least tell you about it.

But if you don't wanna hear about it, I should shut up.
And I should certainly not force my morals through your troath. But once again, that's very in the line of Christ. But we christians are oftenly far from the line of Christ

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by LordShiva
I'm the only one who's allowed to call Lori Lori.

I've just given up trying to stop you.

[Japher]

But we christians are oftenly far from the line of Christ

I'm always amazed at the number of those who are not devout, yet force themself to church every Sunday, or when ever the fancy strikes them. It was those hypocrits and condemers that chased me out of the church some 16 years ago.

Today, however, I look forward to church, and go several times a week if my life permits. I read the bible every day and apply the principles to my life. God showed his grace to me about a year ago, I was offered help, I took it, and I am now using the gifts he gave me to a greater extent which only makes God happy but makes me happy.

Religion is personal and intimate. For me to shove it down anyone's throat would be for me to deny religion in it's true form to that person. I can only open the door, show the way, but it is for that person to do the work. Life is not easy, worshiping God doesn't make it any easier, it just makes it bearable.

[Pekka]

"Religion is personal and intimate. For me to shove it down anyone's throat would be for me to deny religion in it's true form to that person. I can only open the door, show the way, but it is for that person to do the work. Life is not easy, worshiping God doesn't make it any easier, it just makes it bearable."

I agree.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka
My opinion is that you don't need to promote a religion. Why would you need to promote a good thing? You usually don't promote things that are ultimately very good, because there's just no need.

Let's say I knew about a huge party. It would be at some crazy time, at some crazy place, which wouldn't make any sense for a party. Now this party would definitely be a good thing. So I shouldn't promote it, you will find it on your own, right?

JM

[Pekka]

JM, Wow, incredibly invalid analogy once again. Congrats, you didn't pass.

[Jon Miller]

How so?

JM

[Lorizael]

Don't be civil with him, JM. Make disparaging remarks about his ancestry.

[Pekka]

I'm not going to waste my time explaining why something so obvious is so obvious.

[Elok]

Obviousness is subjective. I don't see how it's invalid either. Of course, I still don't know what you're talking about, but hey...

[Pekka]

Elok, stop being disrespectful and go somewhere else with your crying. You're not wanted here. Even though I might lash a bit when JM says something, it's still different, since he is coming in with his own terms and is being a good guy about it. You I just don't simply like, so you're wasting your time talking to me, and the reason is that you are being disrespectful when it's not necessary.

So come correct or don't come at all.

[Alexander I]

I just read through this thread.
IMHO, Cybershy's opinions

[Rufus T. Firefly]

This really isn't a discussion of whether or not religion is good, or even sensible. It's a discussion of child-rearing.

Here's the deal:

One of the most important things parents do for their kids is give them a sense of identity by giving them a sense of who the family is.

In my case, I wasn't raised Catholic because my parents thought Catholicism was good or true (in truth, my Dad in particular dsiliked much about the religion, and was indifferent to much of the rest). I was raised Catholic because We Were Catholics, the way We Were Americans, Ukranians, Chicagoans, Democrats, and Cubs (not Sox!) Fans.

Some of those things are still an important part of my identity (I'm still a patriotic American, a chauvanistic Chicagoan, and a registered Democrat). Some of these things never quite took (I'm indifferent to my ethnic heritage, and bored silly by all sports). And some -- like Catholicism -- I rejected later in life.

The point is not that being a Catholic is toxic and demented (not unlike being a Democrat or a Cubs fan, come to think of it). The point is, a kid needs to know Who We Are. They can reject that later in life, when they have the capacity to reason things out for themselves. But, at least initially, Identity trumps. I completely get why my parents raised me Catholic; it's the same reason my wife and I rasied our daughter without religion.

That being said, the only people I have any problem with are people who spend their adult lives indifferent to the religion of their youth, but start going to church again once they have kids because "kids need religion." That's just crap on too many levels to count.

[Ben Kenobi]

But to me it seems they're too cryptic to be analyzed and claimed as anything in academia. Too cryptic, period, it's like numerology. Few other things with religions, if you were born into this world without the knowledge of it, you would never and I mean never ever accept it as the truth later on.

Well, many people come to religion late in life when they realise that religion makes things make sense to them. I would count myself among those that certain things that do not add up make sense when you consider them from a religious perspective. In this, people without the background can learn about God and come to accept him.

This is the BIG problem I see, you have to indoctrinate people when they're kids and what kind of... was religion ever reasoned to you?

Yes it was. It was reasoned with me when I was old enough to understand things, and I doubt I am the only one who has had this experience.

I know it wasn't done in here. It was just nice stories and an adult telling you 'it really did happen'. Repeat 100000000. THis is the problem, because this is a sign of indoctrination that has a power element beyond ethical and moral boundaries, and that's why it is interesting. A question, if you had the book of ANY religion in your hands and didn't know what it was, never heard about it, and say you pick it up when you're 30 years old and read it.... what is your reaction?

Well I know my own reaction to reading the bible at the first time at 19. I wondered why it had been kept from me for so long. Made many other things make sense to me after I read it. It was like realising this is what everyone is talking about and it was the key to unlocking so many other things that I had no clue about at all.

My estimation is that every single person who says that they'd take is as the real truth are lying to themselves.

Nope, that's what I did. I took it as the real truth. Maybe not at 30, but at 19.

So this is a problem, we know religions won't work unless they're embedded in people before they grow up.

There are many converts who have come to God, and the deathbed conversions. Everyone has some knowledge of God, and the bible in my opinion speaks to their own knowledge of God. This is why people can pick up the bible having no exposure to the book, and become a believer.

So while religions are a powerful tool, a powerful institution with self serving interest, it's not rational, none of them are. That's why it is a belief and you need it, that's pretty simple and clear, but the key point I made here was the fact that you have to pound it in when people are kids. Doesn't that seem wrong to people?

Actually I believe that religion for the most part is rational but is also beyond rational, in that there are some things which our reason cannot comprehend. There are some parts that we can understand.

We can rewind the history all we want and see indoctrination of different things, NONE of them were right according to our knowledge. What makes us so sure? Not only do we not have any plain text about it, we got the same cryptic analogies the people who believed in the rock and the loud speakers had. It's the same thing, the names change, that's all. So... if we are sure and.. if we have personal conviction, if we are personally religious, why would we indoctrinate our own kids to it?

Because it is what I sincerely believe is right. I feel I have an obligation to raise my kids in the faith and to give them to which I was deprived. I don't want them to accept it because daddy said so, but because it makes sense to them.

Of course most people would say that's exactly why they are "taught", but they aren't taught to really question the logic or irrational parts, and let's face it, some of these kids turn out the be the most stupid humans on earth who wouldn't survive on their own. So why the indoctrination?

Some are taught this, taught to address the common objections. This is what is called apologetics, and there are folks who do this training.

SO, if you misunderstood this, the point is not to attack any single religion or even religions as a whole, but the practice of indoctrinating children.

All children are taught, and if they are not taught, they still learn. You can no more prevent a child from being indoctrinated then you can prevent them from soaking up the sun. The question is what are the morals and values that you are going to inculate into your children?