"We've invented adolescence, and stretched it out too far" says psychologist

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by aneeshm


That was only a part of his essay. The full thing deals with the issue of intelligent people being misfits in a fundamentally consequenceless and therefore unreal society, which we have turned school into.

Link

Yeah, I agree. That is why I spent my time reading in class. Never really worked hard before college, except if there was sometihng that interested me (like my study of communism, I wrote a 50 page paper in 12th grade on communistic utopias).

It definitely harmed me, and from what I can see it harms everyone else also. Fromt he intelligent to the not so intelligent.

JM

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Having more time to screw around is part of the problem. It is not the solution. What is the solution is more responsiblility and being treated as such.

JM

Another part of the solution is that actions should have real consequences.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It's more complex then to say that society wants to restrict teenage labour, much of the jobs that teenagers used to do have been priced out of the market by raises in the minumum wage. If you have to pay the teenager the same as an adult with more experience, then it's less likely they will work at all.

I don't think that that's the case at all. Minimum wage isn't driving teens out of the work force. In most places, even the most menial jobs pay above minimum wage in the first place. Teens and early-twenty somethings don't work at menial jobs because they're told by their parents, their peers, their media, and their political leadership that they're too good to do that type of work. That stuff's to be left to the peasant class of illegal immigrants. Our precious youth shouldn't have to lower themselves to working at Wendy's...

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
How is this militarizing their childhoods? This just is saying that it should be structured for 11ish hours a day. They can do what they want (with parental approval) in the evenings, when their parents are their and can decide what to allow or not to allow (including running around).

Still waiting for the part where they learn how to make adult decisions on their own...

In most of earth's history, kids were assumed to help out and be involved, etc for similar ammounts of time. At a minimum 8 hours is needed for educational purposes. I don't see how the extra 3 hours, espeically since it is to be used for studying/recreation, is adding any more stress/difficultly, etc in the kids lives.

The problem isn't the extra three hours of work. It's where the work is coming from, what the work is, and how the work is accomplished that is the problem. Do you really think some cobbler's apprentice in the days of yore just sat their watching their master put together shoes all day? No, they were given instructions and expected to accomplish their task without requiring somebody to look over their shoulder every three seconds.

I think that you are trying to keep the kids as babies (1-5, before going to school), instead of allowing them to grow up.

How is allowing kids more freedom to think and act on their own keeping them babies?

[Jon Miller]

Some education is required. Rush that through as fast as in reasonable (it clearly can be done in 9 years). Then make college more independent (maybe even more internship freindly, I think that college is going more internship freindly already though).

I would make the first 1-9 years much more result based then year based. If you are advanced enough, you could be doing some college level work before you leave.

JM

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Yeah, I agree. That is why I spent my time reading in class. Never really worked hard before college, except if there was sometihng that interested me (like my study of communism, I wrote a 50 page paper in 12th grade on communistic utopias).

It definitely harmed me, and from what I can see it harms everyone else also.

I had a similar educational experience growing up. High School was too easy, so I could skate by without ever learning how to work. Now I'm a chronic procrastinator, and it's a problem that I'm finding difficult to overcome (Damn Apolyton )

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Yeah, I agree. That is why I spent my time reading in class. Never really worked hard before college, except if there was sometihng that interested me (like my study of communism, I wrote a 50 page paper in 12th grade on communistic utopias).

It definitely harmed me, and from what I can see it harms everyone else also. Fromt he intelligent to the not so intelligent.

JM

It harms the most intelligent the most as well as the least, because they suffer the worst during that time but also can get over it much faster as their innate wisdom comes forth. It's the ones caught between average and outstanding intelligence who suffer the most.

Now it's not binary like I described above, but it's a scale.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
How is allowing kids more freedom to think and act on their own keeping them babies?

By giving them free time but not responsibility.

JM

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Some education is required. Rush that through as fast as in reasonable (it clearly can be done in 9 years).

Evidence? Kind of depends on what you define as 'required education', also.

Then make college more independent (maybe even more internship freindly, I think that college is going more internship freindly already though).

Honestly, I'd rather see this be what happens to make school a year-round event than just more read/write/regurgitate. Force a business with x employees to take in y apprentices for two months a year.

I would make the first 1-9 years much more result based then year based. If you are advanced enough, you could be doing some college level work before you leave.

This one I will take my own childhood as evidence for; there is a limit to how far a child can be advanced due to their academic results before it becomes detrimental to their social development. 8 year olds in 8th grade classrooms don't work out well.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't think that that's the case at all. Minimum wage isn't driving teens out of the work force. In most places, even the most menial jobs pay above minimum wage in the first place.

That's not the point I was trying to make, because there is a minimum wage, the employers do as much as they can to ensure that they get the value out of the wage that they are paying. If the marginal utility of the worker is less then the wage, then they aren't going to hire the worker.

Teens and early-twenty somethings don't work at menial jobs because they're told by their parents, their peers, their media, and their political leadership that they're too good to do that type of work. That stuff's to be left to the peasant class of illegal immigrants. Our precious youth shouldn't have to lower themselves to working at Wendy's...

Well I'm not sure what this has to do with my point that there would be more jobs for young people if the employers didn't have to pay minimum wage. They would have more hours and more responsibility.

To be fair, I've never worked a job where I got paid just to show up. I've always been on commission or worked contract work. You only get paid as much as you work, and if you don't work, you don't get paid.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
By giving them free time but not responsibility.

JM

Who said they weren't getting responsibility? The two aren't mutually exclusive. A lack of constant supervision doesn't mean that no adult ever finds out what goes on during that time. Give them a goal and let them find their own path to it rather than hand-holding them. That's more adult responsibility than supervised recreational periods.

[Jon Miller]

Required education:
Reading
Writing
Arithematic
Some experience with History, Science, etc

If you just look at how we do school, and the months of summer, you can see that by teaching it how we do now, but having school all year, that we can teach everything we do in 12 years now in 9. This is with no changes, but no summer vacation.

How can a 8 yearold who can't even multiply do something as an apprentice? Something where they learn something, not just sweep the floors.

That is 8 yearolds with 12 yearolds. There is the social developement issue. I am not suggesting this. I am saying that the ability to read and write at a 6th grade level is very doable by an 8 yearold.

And I had plenty of social developement issues... (I also skipped a grade later, but I already had them by then. The issues I had were as described in essay that aneeshm cited)

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi


Who said they weren't getting responsibility? The two aren't mutually exclusive. A lack of constant supervision doesn't mean that no adult ever finds out what goes on during that time. Give them a goal and let them find their own path to it rather than hand-holding them. That's more adult responsibility than supervised recreational periods.

Giving them a goal is doing education. I thought you were wanting to give them 3 more hours (or so) of play time per day. I can tell you what would happen then... Nothing that would encourage responsibility.

This seems to be an issue of how to teach, rather then hours per day.

But I still cite that current evidence says that kids don't do anything valuable if they are allowed to do whatever they want (once more, they watch worthless TV shows or get into trouble mostly). (And they could play video games or legos just as easily at school as at home)

JM
(and just legally, parents shouldn't allow other peoples children to come over to their houses when they aren't home)

[Jon Miller]

Koyaan, you definitely seem nostalgic for how you think your childhood should have gone.

JM

[Jon Miller]

The central goal is to treat 'teenagers' as young adults. This can't happen without the ability to be independent financially. As such, they can't be doing highschool at this time.

It seems the reasonable age for this would be 14.

Getting the education requirements (ability to at the very least read, write, and do basic mathematical operations) by this point is crucial for everyone. For people who are college bound having the ability to do more (like college bound peopel currently) is also important.

So at 14 they would be financially, legally, sexually treated as an adult. Their parents would no longer be responsible for them. They could drink alcohol/etc also if they desire (none of this two step business). When they are treated like an adult, they will act like an adult. They have the biology. And they can have the education also (as noted, an issue is that it takes so much time to educate with our current practice, that is why we need to change it, in the past play was educational (to hunt or to fight or to take care of children), it seems that you wish to continue to encourage non-educational play, this is the current problem, and is the reason why people aren't growing up until they are 26).

Honestly, I and many of my freinds in graduate school don't feel like adults even now, at 26. This is wrong.

JM