17 year old girls murder friend to find out what it is like

[Last Conformist]

IIRC, Saddam's first murder was out of anger/revenge, so he'd not be an example of killing just to find out what it feels like. I suspect the same applies to ol' Timur.

I don't think the Roman example is apropos either - gladiators killed for a living, or because they as slaves were compelled to.

[Ned]

LC, but the fan in the stands were there to enjoy the killing, particularly when the lions killed the prisoners.

[Last Conformist]

they did, but they didn't kill themselves, did they?


Now, I suppose I'd not be surprised if some people volunteered as gladiators out of a desire to learn what it feels like. Unfortunately for these girls, modern society doesn't provide any such legal outlets.

[Ned]

LC, I read somewhere that the Romans encouaged public executions of prisoners to "steel" their citizens for the necessary work of killing the enemy in the field. They lived in a violent world and were among the most violent and brutal of them all.

I think the girls may have become "steeled" to killing by seeing so much of it on TV, on the internent and in the news. Attacks on inncocent civilians seems commonplace today; and justified by many who are enemies of either Israel or Bush.

[Arrian]

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Pre our current culture? The concern is that this is a 'new' thing that is an out growth of the alienation that occurs in our western culture.

Jon Miller

I guess nobody clicked on my link.

Am I the only one here who has read Crime and Punishment?

These girls dont seem quite as philisophically sophisticated as Raskolnikov, and they picked a friend, which even Raskolnikov didnt do, but the basic attitude to life is clearly similar - Im sure Doesteovsky would have seen this crime as being of a piece with what he wrote about. Part of mans alienation from something deeper, an alienation that is far larger than capitalism.

[Ned]

Arrian, I am willing to bet that these girls parents/teachers/friends all share the same worldview. Guess what that worldview would be? That the taking of innocent life is never justifiable? I hardly think so.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
I don't think more understandable equals better.

It's less alien. And aliens are bad.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


We can empathize with the former.

Bingo.

Our greed exceeds our curiosity. Yet we pursue our greed largely out of curiosity. But while we build a society, a way of being, out of the search for novel experience, we hide from ourselves the spiritual emptiness of that search.

These girls, like Doesteyskys Raskolnikov, reveal that emptiness in all its hollowness and inhumanity.

Shout that these girls are vile, call for them to be tortured before death, call for them to be beheaded.

And when someone asks you to go a Darfur protest, go shopping instead. You might find something really kewl.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I guess nobody clicked on my link.

Am I the only one here who has read Crime and Punishment?

These girls dont seem quite as philisophically sophisticated as Raskolnikov, and they picked a friend, which even Raskolnikov didnt do, but the basic attitude to life is clearly similar - Im sure Doesteovsky would have seen this crime as being of a piece with what he wrote about. Part of mans alienation from something deeper, an alienation that is far larger than capitalism.

I clicked the link, and I've read C&P. I thought about making a similar argument in response to Ned's post (about how it's the fault of TV, video games, and people who are anti-Bush), but decided it was a waste of keystrokes.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


I clicked the link, and I've read C&P. I thought about making a similar argument in response to Ned's post (about how it's the fault of TV, video games, and people who are anti-Bush), but decided it was a waste of keystrokes.

-Arrian

Yeah well ever so often my genes get the better of me, and I have to go into Hebrew Prophet mode.

And I take issue with more of the responses here than Neds.

[Arrian]

Every so often?

And yes, I gathered you were displeased with the thread (and perhaps our society) in general.

To the Darfur comment, I wonder what happened to the days when idealists would go overseas and volunteer themselves to fight (Spanish Civil War, for instance)? Nowadays it's "we must send [other people who may not understand or care about the issue at hand but who happen to be in the militaries of countries X, Y and Z] to stop this atrocity!"

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Every so often?

And yes, I gathered you were displeased with the thread (and perhaps our society) in general.

To the Darfur comment, I wonder what happened to the days when idealists would go overseas and volunteer themselves to fight (Spanish Civil War, for instance)? Nowadays it's "we must send [other people who may not understand or care about the issue at hand but who happen to be in the militaries of countries X, Y and Z] to stop this atrocity!"

-Arrian

geezus christ, the constraining factor in Darfur is NOT any lack of enough UN peacekeepers. Its getting the govt of Sudan to give permission to the peacekeepers to go in, and supplement the inadequate AU force.

And sanctions would go a long way toward getting them to give in on that. Its a question of political will, ours and that of other members of the world community.

Which is where the protests and activism come in.


Theres no need to go out and fight - you think the Govt of Sudan is going to let activists in anyway? Any more than theres a need to go attack these girls with your bare hands (though some folks seem to have a craving to do just that)

Its about changing our whole attitude.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Every so often?

Its been a very long time since ive critiqued the general spiritual hollowness of society.

Simply attacking, say, Putins contributions to democracy isnt full Hebrew Prophet mode, IMO.

[Ned]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


geezus christ, the constraining factor in Darfur is NOT any lack of enough UN peacekeepers. Its getting the govt of Sudan to give permission to the peacekeepers to go in, and supplement the inadequate AU force.

And sanctions would go a long way toward getting them to give in on that. Its a question of political will, ours and that of other members of the world community.

Which is where the protests and activism come in.


Theres no need to go out and fight - you think the Govt of Sudan is going to let activists in anyway? Any more than theres a need to go attack these girls with your bare hands (though some folks seem to have a craving to do just that)

Its about changing our whole attitude.

It wasnt't that long ago that Bill Clinton DOWed Serbia for not allowing peacekeepers into Kosovo.

Why is the international community delaying a DOW on Sudan if that is what it takes? Is there someone on the Security Council threatening a veto?