The Altera Centauri collection has been brought up to date by Darsnan. It comprises every decent scenario he's been able to find anywhere on the web, going back over 20 years.
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Call To Power 2 Cradle 3+ mod in progress: https://apolyton.net/forum/other-games/call-to-power-2/ctp2-creation/9437883-making-cradle-3-fully-compatible-with-the-apolyton-edition
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
To be honest, I would rather have more subway lines in my town rather than streetcars. Subway allows for an area to have a margin of potential density increase, and therefore would tend to maximize real estate prices. Besides, subways are more pleasant.
However, many US cities, including Washington, once had very extensive streetcar lines (the system was closed in 1962), so they must have made sense in many instances on a purely economic basis. Washington is planning to revive one streetcar line as a demonstration, but if I were running the show, I would bite the bullet and spend the money for subway. True, we're talking obscene sums of money.
If I had my druthers, not a single bus would ply the streets of Washington. It's worth noting that the subway lines now operating in the DC area run pretty closely to the old streetcar system. The subway system first opened in 1976, only 14 years after the streetcar system closed, leading me to believe that Washington realized that buses weren't a very good replacement for streetcars.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Money is an object, but you can't just look at the cost. You also have to look at upkeep costs and how much subway service increases real estate values. Increasing real estate values are important in US cities, because city governments are funded in large part on real estate taxes.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Boys, you're getting trashed here. Fact is Toronto has one of the world's best transit systems and that's one of the reasons Toronto is considered one of the most livable cities in the world.
If you're going to try to trash Toronto, you'll have to try much harder because so far your barbs are rather dull. None of them stand up.
Steetcar tracks are dangerous (asher and mobius): only to complete idiots, but they would find street curbs and steps dangerous. This has to be the worst argument.
Streetcars lines can get obstructed (asher): Occasionally, but buses get stuck in traffic jams every day. On dedicated street car lines, street cars are provide faster service during peak hours carrying more people per vehicle while creating less air pollution than buses, even buses operating on dedicated lanes.
Steetcars are not wheelchair friendly (asher): Wrong, new streetcars, like the ones used in Vienna are low floor and can carry wheelchairs. The next generation of TTC streetcars will likely be low-floor models.
Toronto has poor/non-existant urban planning (kontiki): Completely wrong. See Jacobs, the UN, the Economist and many other experts who consistently cite Toronto an example of a city that works extremely well because of excellent urban planning.
Buses carry the same number of passengers as streetcars (Asher): Wrong. Buses typically carry less than 75 people. Even double deckers max out at 100. TTC street cars carry about 150.
Buses are better (asher): Except buses create more air pollution from burning diesel and carry far fewer passengers per vehicle compared to streetcars
Streetcar are bad, LRTs are good (Asher): Wrong, they can be the same thing. The Spadina line and the St. Clair line are effectively the same as an LRT line.
The TTC should use fuel cell buses (Mobius): Brilliant, except they're still in the experimental phase. Maybe in 20 years, but not right now.
Use doubledeckers (Moby): They're too tall for most North American cities.
VivaYork is better than the TTC (Asher): the two can't be compared. Viva is for a small, low-density population, the TTC serves more than two million people a day. Viva carries something like a two million people every six months.
The TTC should use electric buses (mobius and Asher): The TTC did use electric buses (we called them trolleys) until about 10 years ago, but couldn't get the funding to replace them. A good alternative to diesel buses, and good for routes that lack the passenger capacity to justify streetcars. But on busy routes, streetcars are better because trolleys carry fewer people. The old TTC trolleys probably carried fewer than 50 people. Mind you, Vancouver has some good ones that are bigger, still smaller than streetcars, but good for less busy routes.
The reality is that the TTC is one of the best transit systems in North America because it uses a mix of vehicles, including streetcars.
Subways lines move lots of people, but are expensive to build. LRT/dedicated street car lines, are cheaper than subways, but take up road space. On high density routes, streetcars are better than buses while the track area can be used by other vehicles. Buses are better for low capacity routes and require less infrastructure, but create more pollution.
What Toronto needs is more streetcar lines, not fewer. It makes more economic sense to build streetcar dedicated lines than subways. Toronto also need to restart its electric bus system for lower density routes, like the old Bay street, Avenue Road and Dufferin routes.
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Originally posted by Tingkai
Boys, you're getting trashed here. Fact is Toronto has one of the world's best transit systems
It's got 2 frickin subway lines, unreliable and air-condition-less streetcars, and stops running before the bars close (1:30am). Best transit systems? YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH....
and that's one of the reasons Toronto is considered one of the most livable cities in the world.
Sure, if rent wasn't too high, crime wasn't too high, smog wasn't too high, and transit was decent...
Streetcars lines can get obstructed (asher): Occasionally, but buses get stuck in traffic jams every day. On dedicated street car lines, street cars are provide faster service during peak hours carrying more people per vehicle while creating less air pollution than buses, even buses operating on dedicated lanes.
For about the fourth time this thread, no. Busses can operate in dedicated lanes, busses can easily match or exceed the capacity of the Toronto streetcars, and busses can run on electricity as well. This matches the "benefits" of the streetcar with the added bonus of not being blocked by obstructions, which happens more often than you think (as someone who takes it daily).
Steetcars are not wheelchair friendly (asher): Wrong
They still are...
Toronto has poor/non-existant urban planning (kontiki): Completely wrong.
I know many Urban Planners who would completely disagree with you. Google for the "Urban Toronto" forum, for instance.
Buses carry the same number of passengers as streetcars (Asher): Wrong. Buses typically carry less than 75 people. Even double deckers max out at 100. TTC street cars carry about 150.
BS. The Toronto screetcars are the size of busses.
Buses are better (asher): Except buses create more air pollution from burning diesel and carry far fewer passengers per vehicle compared to streetcars
This is wrong. Again, electric busses. And again, the streetcars are the same physical size as busses and can hold the same amount of people should they be designed as such (with less seating, like Toronto's streetcar).
[quote]Streetcar are bad, LRTs are good (Asher): Wrong, they can be the same thing. The Spadina line and the St. Clair line are effectively the same as an LRT line.
The TTC should use fuel cell buses (Mobius): Brilliant, except they're still in the experimental phase. Maybe in 20 years, but not right now.
Electric busses are not in the experimental phase. They are used in many cities.
Use doubledeckers (Moby): They're too tall for most North American cities.
There is nothing in Toronto that prevents them from being used downtown.
The TTC should use electric buses (mobius and Asher): The TTC did use electric buses (we called them trolleys) until about 10 years ago, but couldn't get the funding to replace them. A good alternative to diesel buses, and good for routes that lack the passenger capacity to justify streetcars. But on busy routes, streetcars are better because trolleys carry fewer people.
It's hilarious to me that your entire argument seems to hinge on:
Who cares if there are obstacles? It's not like it happens every day when the empty streetcars queue up while the full ones get even more full. It's not like it happens at least once a month (to me) that one encounters technical difficulties or jumps the track and screws up ALL streetcars.
Who cares if people get hurt by the tracks? You have to be dumb to!
Streetcars are magical and can always hold more people than busses. Let's ignore the fact that this isn't true and state it repeatedly.
Electric busses are not economically feasible! It makes much more sense to build vast networks of rail inside roads (making road maintenance virtually impossible) and then provide an electric-powered vehicle. Woo!
The simple fact is, the only difference between a comparatively designed electric bus and a streetcar is the streetcar is stuck to the tracks. Tracks which are dangerous, expensive, make the roads hard to maintain, and prohibit passing of obstacles and force the queuing up of empty streetcars behind full streetcars in rush hour.
Tingkai, you've been owned...
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Originally posted by Tingkai
Buses carry the same number of passengers as streetcars (Asher): Wrong. Buses typically carry less than 75 people. Even double deckers max out at 100. TTC street cars carry about 150.
According to the TTC the Spadina streetcars carry a maximum of 65 people. You've no idea what you're talking about.
Amazingly, they quote the capacity of TTC busses as...a maximum of 65 people.
I am SHOCKED that you were wrong.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Originally posted by DanS
Money is an object, but you can't just look at the cost. You also have to look at upkeep costs and how much subway service increases real estate values. Increasing real estate values are important in US cities, because city governments are funded in large part on real estate taxes.
Elevated monorails cost 1/10 as much as subways and can be built 10 times faster. Let's face it: It's easier to tunnel through air than ground.
Monorails, unlike street cars and other light rail systems don't screw up traffic because they travel above it. Conversely, traffic doesn't hold up monorails because...yeah...monorails travel above it.
Originally posted by Zkribbler
Elevated monorails cost 1/10 as much as subways and can be built 10 times faster. Let's face it: It's easier to "tunnel" through air that ground.
Monorails, unlike street cars and other light rail systems don't screw up traffic because they travel above it. Conversely, traffic doesn't hold up monorails because...yeah...monorails travel above it.
Monorails.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
As for the title of this thread, I move that in addition to Streetcars, Tingkai be included as part of the evidence.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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