I need a brief of summary of everything the Catholic Church messed up on

[Cort Haus]

Heresson, did the Vatican support the Ustashi or not?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok


TBH, I don't care. Prior to the second world war it was downright fashionable to hate the Jews, and in some parts of the world it still is. As long as it isn't church doctrine, I'm not overly bothered, though of course it's not a good thing. I find your ethnocentrism more disturbing, as you're educated enough to know better.

I dont know and dont particularly care where the statements of Church leaders end, and church doctrines begin. Of course I dont condemn Orthodox Christianity in general on the basis of past statements by OC leaders - just as I dont muslims on such basis either. I judge religions past based on what their adherents did in the past, and those present based on what they do in the present.

As for "my ethnocentrism" given that the nasty prejudice my Jewish consciousness is supposed to be associated with is bigotry against arabs and muslims, and that in our discussions of said subjects its been ME whos defended Islam, and you who have made generalizations about it, i find the irony extreme. Maybe what you find disturbing is not any bigotry against any particular group, but that I continue to believe in a faith and identification that isnt universalist in the way that Christianity is. Sorry, but Im not giving up THAT ethnocentrism.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok


TBH, I don't care. Prior to the second world war it was downright fashionable to hate the Jews, and in some parts of the world it still is. As long as it isn't church doctrine, I'm not overly bothered, though of course it's not a good thing. I find your ethnocentrism more disturbing, as you're educated enough to know better.

actually in western europe from the french rev on intense Jew hatred (as opposed to simply social snobbery) was increasingly UNfashionable. On the eve of the 1st world war only two nations in Europe denied full civil rights to Jews - Russia and Romania (what else do they have in common, eh?) Throughout eastern europe the question of jewhatred was a matter of some debate among gentiles - many opposed, it some supported a "mild" version of it, some were particularly nasty about it.


Just to correct the historical context, is all.

[Ben Kenobi]

Neither celibacy nor orgies are part of RC doctrine. There are married priests (converts from Anglicanism).

True it's a matter of discipline not one of doctrine. The Catholic church has chosen to have celibate priests, but they are not required to do so by the teachings of the church.

They won't force any priests who convert to leave their wives, but they will not allow those who are already priests to marry.

[Q Classic]

The Catholic Church's biggest failure was not setting up some final solution against all the sinners of the world, like the homosexuals, the Jews, the Muslims, and the Protestants.

[Elok]

I'm merely referring to your perverse tendency to think about any subject first in terms of "how does/did this affect the Jews?" I don't like that attitude, regardless of who has it. I didn't like it when people at a church I went to objected to the war in Kosovo just because the bombs desecrated Orthodox graveyards and killed people who were Orthodox. If it had killed a bunch of Hindus or something they would have found it awful in a distant, academic sort of way; they were only bothered when "their people" were affected. I dislike and distrust any racial, religious, or ethnic loyalty which supersedes one's loyalty to humanity as a whole.

And if we're talking about what we should stereotypically be prejudiced against, we Orthodox have a historical beef with Islam too. You know, fall of Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, stuff like that? Quit acting superior.

[Ben Kenobi]

So I need a list of all of the atrocities the Catholic Church has committed that you can possibly think of. I am looking more along the lines of the actual church authorities, such as popes, instead of just Catholic laypeople committing atrocities. I am not trying to convince him that there were a lot of evil catholic people, that's a given, I need to convince him that the church itself was quite evil for a long time.

Well, you are wasting your time quite frankly.

First of all, if he is a Catholic he will say that the church has a human nature and a divine nature. The human nature of the church are the people that comprise the church. They are fallen, they will sin they will commit all manner of evil in the course of their lives and over time.

The divine nature of the church is the doctrine of the church and the teachings of the church. Even if we supposed that everyone who became Catholic could perfectly follow everything, it would not make the teachings of the Catholic church any more true. They are true not because of the conduct of those who are Catholic, they are true in themselves and therefore can be the measure by which our conduct can be gaged.

[Ben Kenobi]

Religion came up in a conversation with a teammate of mine, who is Catholic, and I noticed that every view of his was exactly aligned with the Church's teachings and his reasoning was always 'well the church says this...' and we got to talking and he actually believes something along the lines of that everything the Catholic Church says and does is infallible and that doctrinally it has never been wrong or changed its position on anything.

The only way to pursue this matter is to read up on Catholic sources and what Catholic doctrine actually says. You aren't going to succeed otherwise, and I must also caution you that there are certain consequences to investigating in this fashion.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
I'm merely referring to your perverse tendency to think about any subject first in terms of "how does/did this affect the Jews?"

1. I am one of the few Jewish posters here, and particularly one of the few with involved in a major way with Jewish religion. I try to inform people. In the same way Im appreciative of Aneeshms posts, as I like seeing a religious Hindu POV.

2. I would think my posts on the situation in Darfur, on racial issues in the US, and on many other things would have shown my concerns with other human rights problems. Perhaps you just dont notice them as much.

3. Yes, I am particularly concerned with issues relating to Jews and antisemitism. Given our history I dont see anything wrong or particularly "ethnocentric" about that. Frankly, Im not sure why its your business what issues are of greatest concern to me.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
I dislike and distrust any racial, religious, or ethnic loyalty which supersedes one's loyalty to humanity as a whole.

Our loyalty to our people is a religious obligation, and is part of our loyalty to humanity, since we approach a universal God through our particular relationship (as a people) to Him.

Im sorry if thats not acceptable to you.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
If it had killed a bunch of Hindus or something they would have found it awful in a distant, academic sort of way; they were only bothered when "their people" were affected.

If they would have found it awful, I suspect they were bothered by it.

What was their reaction to the Tsunami? Were they bothered? I guess they were. I was. My community was. The absence of Jews or Orthodox Christians didnt matter. Your presumptions of what bothers other people are inappropriate.

Its quite possible for someone to have a universal ethical sense and concern, while also have a special relationship to a particular group.

[Elok]

I disagree with some of those statements, obviously. But let's end the threadjack.

[KrazyHorse]

^Religion^

[BeBMan]

It's all Bush's fault anyway.

[Flip McWho]

LoTM -

Could you possibly recommend me some books covering the basics of Judaism. Please try to keep it quite basic, kinda like an introductionary text.

All I know about Jews is that you're from Judea originally, Christ was one of you who you don't believe is a prophet/messiah, the Old Testament is related to them and hitler didn't like them much.