Middle East thread continued

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Colon™


The Lebanese gov't doesn't have the wherewithal to subdue Hizbollah,

the wherewhithal of the Govt of Lebanon is clearly limited (though how much so seems to be a matter of dispute). However it is exceeded by the strength of Hezbollah, because of the support for Hezbollah by certain other states in the region. The world community should address that.

Meanwhile Israel can address the strength of Hezbollah more directly.

[VetLegion]

Anyone knows where I can get some info on what tech exactly Hesbollah is using? What type of rockets, etc. They're only reaching Haifa. How hard is it to build a rocket that can reach entire Israel anyway? I bet you can find instructions on the internet.

[VetLegion]

BTW., where are all the Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian internauts? It would be cool to have some on the forum.

[Proteus_MST]

Most of the weapons seem to be homemade.
But, if by "Katyushas" used by the Hizbollah they meanthe ral sowjet Katyushas, then it is Sowjet tech from WW2, an unguided fin-stabilized rocket with rather small warhead which wasn´t really precise to aim and therefore in WW2 was only effective if used in masses.
But seems like they also have more mdoern tech, the ship for example seems to have been hit by a chinese made silkworm missile.

[VetLegion]

I do wonder why they're still using katyushas when they could probably make something better from some tubes and a propellant with today's knowledge. I'm intrigued by the possibilities offered by today's cheap GPS systems, web cams and computer chips -- surely even a crude guiding system shouldn't be impossible to make in a garage by a dozen or so moderately competent people.

[Kuciwalker]

reposted from the thread that was closed

Spiffor: Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinians, either.

Originally posted by Spiffor
I don't think Israel wants to kill as many civilians as possible. If it wanted to do so, it would have already done. I'm fully aware that there is no genocide going on in the Middle East.

However, it seems pretty clear to me that Israel doesn't care one zilch about the material well-being of the Palestinians. And considering how scarce water is in the area, Israel has no qualms claiming all the water it needs for itself.
There is actually a broad feeling of undairness in the West Bank over the issue. The Palestinians watch the Israelis seemingly swimming in water, while they have it tough. And the Israelis aren't gonna share, and the only reason for this unfairness comes from Israel's military power.

There was an article in the Washington Post today:

Israeli Troops Move Into Gaza Again

By John Ward Anderson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, July 17, 2006; A10

BEIT HANOUN, Gaza Strip, July 17 -- The Israeli military returned to the northern Gaza Strip early Sunday, taking up positions outside this farming community and periodically firing tank shells and artillery rounds for much of the day, killing five people and injuring at least 30.

It was not supposed to be this way, said Humaid Abu Akel, 40, recalling the celebrated troop withdrawal last year that ended Israel's occupation of this thin strip of land on the Mediterranean coast.

"We were so happy," Akel said. "We said, 'This is over, and now everything is going to be okay.' I have 10 kids, and I want to raise them. And now we're frustrated and angry."

Israeli tanks and bulldozers had entered northern Gaza early in July after Palestinian gunmen captured an Israeli soldier on June 25. Those forces withdrew about a week ago.

Akel's family was one of 10 that were forced to move from their homes in a farming area outside Beit Hanoun on Wednesday, after Israeli artillery shells landed near them and sprayed the area with shrapnel, injuring two people. Some of the homes, constructed with tin drums as walls, are less than 2,000 feet from the border with Israel.

Early Sunday, the families awoke to the sound of Israeli tanks, helicopters, explosions and small-arms fire directly outside the school where they had found shelter for several nights, and they were forced to move again, to a school in nearby Jabalya.

Mariam el-Selgawi, a neighbor who fled her home with her eight children and elderly in-laws, said she knows why the Israelis are back.

"Because of the rockets, everyone is launching rockets" from the agricultural areas inside the Gaza Strip over the border at Israeli towns, she said. "Days before, there was a group trying to shoot a rocket, and they were hit by a missile from a drone, and all of them died.

"All the time I get in fights with them when they come. They know it will bring Israel back to the area," she complained of the Palestinians firing the projectiles. "The last time I said: 'The Israelis are going to come and kill us. Aren't you afraid you're going to make us orphans?' And one of them said: 'We will launch the rockets from your house. You deserve it,' " and they fired it from outside her fence, she said.

Her father-in-law, Ali el-Selgawi, 76, sat forlornly on the linoleum schoolroom floor that is the family's latest bed, sipping juice and shaking his head. "You can't talk to them, or they just hit you," he said.

Mariam el-Selgawi added that the capture of the Israeli soldier -- and the militants' bid to use him in a prisoner swap -- was a big mistake. "It allowed the Israelis to come back in," she said.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said the army's incursion was "part of an ongoing effort to bring back the kidnapped soldier and focus on the terror organizations and infrastructure that is launching rockets against Israel." She would not say how many troops were involved or how long they would remain in Gaza.

Early Monday, Israeli warplanes bombed the Palestinian Foreign Ministry building in Gaza City, injuring at least three people.

During the operation Sunday, which began before dawn, Israeli forces targeted several groups of Palestinian fighters, one of which had fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli vehicle, the spokeswoman said. The military wing of the Islamic group Hamas, which runs the Palestinian government, said three of its members were killed. Another group, the Popular Resistance Committees, said two of its fighters were killed and two critically injured by a drone-launched missile late Sunday afternoon.

Two journalists, including an Italian, were also injured in the fighting, hospital officials said.
© 2006 The Washington Post Company

(emphasis mine)

While the other stuff is interesting, the bolded part is what's important. Hamas not only doesn't care about the lives of Palestinians; they explicitly use their attacks on Israel to target their opponents by exposing them to retaliatory strikes. Then, in a perverse unjustice, Hamas gets free positive publicity when the Israeli retaliation kills innocents. Innocents Hamas deliberately put in the line of fire.

****ers.

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by VetLegion
I do wonder why they're still using katyushas when they could probably make something better from some tubes and a propellant with today's knowledge. I'm intrigued by the possibilities offered by today's cheap GPS systems, web cams and computer chips -- surely even a crude guiding system shouldn't be impossible to make in a garage by a dozen or so moderately competent people.

I can't say I'm knowledgable, but it seems to me making guided rockets is a harder task that you're making it out to be. All the electronics you're putting in there have to survive the stress of being transported and of the launch, and still make precision in-flight course corrections.

[Ecthy]

Spiffor: Noone cares for the Palestinians.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Lord Avalon

I can't say I'm knowledgable, but it seems to me making guided rockets is a harder task that you're making it out to be. All the electronics you're putting in there have to survive the stress of being transported and of the launch, and still make precision in-flight course corrections.

Besides the technical problems, they really don't need precision missiles since they are not supposed to be used against specific tagets. Their only purpose is to spread terror amongst civilians and there an unpredictable weapon actually works better.

[Proteus_MST]

Another reason would be, that those homemade or vintage rockets suit their needs.
And even with these rockets you have a high hit probability if you aim them at cities.

So they probably thouhgt that it makes more sense to buy/assemble a higher number of low tech rockets, instead of a smaller number of Hi-Tech rockets, as these rockets already cause a lot of terror if they strike a city within israel, no matter where they hit.

Oops,
looks like Black Cat was a little bit faster

[VetLegion]

OK, I guess you two are right. I'm wondering where are all the Hezbollah and Palestinian tech people. They certainly don't surf on civ sites, so how do they kill time?

[Spiffor]

Re: reposted from the thread that was closed

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
****ers.

QFT

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
OK, I guess you two are right. I'm wondering where are all the Hezbollah and Palestinian tech people. They certainly don't surf on civ sites, so how do they kill time?

They play Special Force (their official server is down)

These little twerps are quite good actually, I couldn't find any crack to play the game when I downloaded it. Was fully unable to see what the game was worth.

[Edan]

With the exception of the Palestinians, the Arab world appears to be united in blaming Iran and Syria for the fighting in Lebanon. Until last week, Arab political analysts and government officials were reluctant to criticize Hizbullah in public. But now that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah and his top aides are in hiding, an anti-Hizbullah coalition is emerging not only in Lebanon, but in several other Arab countries as well.

Hizbullah and their supporters were hoping that the massive Israeli military operation in Lebanon would trigger large-scale protests throughout the Arab world, creating instability and threatening to bring down some of the Arab regimes.

But the response on the Arab street has been so disappointing for Hizbullah that its leaders are now openly talking about an Arab "conspiracy" to liquidate the Shi'ite organization. The few Hizbullah supporters in Ramallah, the Gaza Strip and some Arab capitals have therefore been directing most of their criticism against the Arab presidents and monarchs, accusing them of serving the interests of the US and Israel.

The anti-Hizbullah coalition, which appears to be growing with every Israeli missile that drops on the heads of Hizbullah leaders and headquarters, is spearheaded by Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. These three countries, together with many Arab commentators and political analysts, are convinced that the leaders of Teheran and Damascus are using Hizbullah to divert attention from Iran's nuclear program and Syria's involvement in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri.

Trying to explain the Arab attitude, Palestinian political analyst Ashraf al-Ajrami noted that many Arab countries were afraid of Iran and did not want to see the Iranians spread their influence. "The Arab countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, believe that no party has the right to drag the entire region to a military confrontation with Israel," he wrote in the Ramallah-based Al-Ayyam daily.

"These countries believe that there is no room for mistakes and adventures. The Arabs are worried about Iran's plans in the region, especially with regards to Iraq and the development of nuclear weapons, and their attempts to influence events in Lebanon and Palestine. A large number of Arab countries, particularly in the Gulf, see Iran as a future adversary."

link

[Edan]

Following is an assessment of Hezbollah's military capability before Israel's offensive, according to Nicholas Blanford, a Beirut-based analyst for Jane's Defence Weekly, as well as Lebanese and Israeli security sources:

Fighters

600 full-time fighters and another 3,000-4,500 veterans available for mobilisation.

Hezbollah fighters undergo training sponsored by Iran, use a range of infantry small arms, and carry out roadside and suicide bomb attacks. 15,000-30,000 reservists in volunteer militias.

Rockets and missiles

13,000 Katyusha rockets. The 107mm variant has a range of 11 km, the 122mm variant a range of 20km.

Iranian-made Fajr-3 rockets, with a range of 45km, and the Fajr-5 variant with a range of around 70km.

Footage broadcast by Hezbollah suggests it manufactured its own version of the latter, renaming it Raad-1. Israel puts the number of these at around 100.

Israel said Hezbollah fired a Syrian-supplied 220mm rocket, with a 90kg warhead at its port city of Haifa on Sunday that killed eight people.

Hezbollah said it had fired a salvo of Raad-2 and Raad-3 rockets, but did not immediately provide further details.

Foreign analysts believe Iran has secretly deployed Zelzal-2 ballistic missiles with Hezbollah. Believed capable of carrying a 600kg warhead, possibly with chemical or biological agents, to a maximum range of 200km. That would put all major Israeli cities in range.

Hezbollah fired an Iranian-supplied C-802 missile at an Israeli navy vessel off Beirut last week, killing four sailors.

Command structure

Hezbollah has headquarters in the Shiite districts of Beirut and southern Lebanon, training camps in the Bekaa Valley, and liaison offices in Syria and Iran.

link