Middle East thread continued

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BlackCat
You are right about this, but the main reason is that US supports israel. If US had supported the pals, they would have considered them as the evil opressors.

US support doesn't help, but it's not the only reason by far.

After all, South Africa under the apatheid regime was a fave villain of leftists worldwide, even after the US stopped supporting it.

[Arrian]

i wonder what would happen if an israeli bomb would kill or wound some very important strategic targets such as american TOURISTS. just at the wrong place i presume.

Yes. It would be unfortunate and sad, but not even in the same ballpark as throwing molotav cocktails at a synagoge. That you are having trouble with this distinction amazes me.

There are plenty of valid criticisms of Israeli policy (for instance, some of their targets - the lighthouse being the example discussed in this thread, the position of the "security fence," general occupation policies, and the treatment of Israeli citizens of Palestinian descent). This, however, is simply misfortune.

-Arrian

[dannubis]

Why should there be a distinction?

In both cases innocent people are put at risk and die.

Or do you want to say there is some moral difference between the first hatefull attack and a coldly ordered bombing strike aimed at the destruction of a portion of the Arab population of Lebanon? (and during which innocent people got hit, just as when a terrorist attacks a civilian target?)

I don't see how being a state gives you the moral high ground. I am sorry.

[Sandman]

About 200 Lebanese civilians dead so far, and 30 Lebanese soldiers, 11 from Israel's recent attack on a barracks.

When the Israelis say they want the Lebanese government to 'disarm' (i.e. fight) Hezbollah, are they lying or just being stupid?

[Jaguar]

Re: Re: Fun with selective quoting!

Originally posted by Ming


And I'm about to call you "restricted"...

Any more of the personal crap and you are toast.

Discuss the topic... not the posters!

You're really going lenient these days, Ming. OTOH, I wouldn't ban him either because he was kind of right.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Sandman
About 200 hundred Lebanese civilians dead so far, and 30 Lebanese soldiers, 11 from Israel's recent attack on a barracks.

20,000? Genocide!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

From what I gather (from my discussions with French Jews, I don't know if foreign Jews share a similar point of view), it comes from the idea that antisemitism is a very specific beast, unlike any other form of racism and bigotry.

According to the people I talked to, there is something more dangerous with antisemitism than with other forms of racism, in that antisemitism has the seeds of a new shoah in itself. The shoah is also an entirely unique genocide, worse than any other genocide.


My analysis:
After WW2, the rejection of antisemitism was the only widespread anti-racist stance. This anti-antisemitism mostly came from the West's collective guilt about the shoah. However, with time, other anti-racist causes have gained support, and many jews feared that their own cause would be lost in an ocean of other anti-racist causes. As a result, many became vocal about the idea that antisemitism in innately more dangerous than other forms of racism.
Some call it the "victimization race", and the Jews lead that race so far, because the Jewish community in the west is more influencial than other communities, as the Jews are better integrated in mainstream society, and the collective guilt about the shoah hasn't disappeared.

My analysis - Israel IS held to the same standards, or higher ones. Suppose one of Belgiums neighbors had an region adjoining Belgium, from which rockets were fired at Belgium, and from which kidnappers came to take Belgian soldiers. The usual response is a recap of past Israeli misdeeds, and a circle that goes back to the notion that Israel fundamentally has no right to exist in the first place. IF you accept that Israel DOES have a right to exist in the first place, you do not find that Israel is getting many breaks.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
About 200 hundred Lebanese civilians dead so far, and 30 Lebanese soldiers, 11 from Israel's recent attack on a barracks.

When the Israelis say they want the Lebanese government to 'disarm' (i.e. fight) Hezbollah, are they lying or just being stupid?

Theyre being quite serious, and not at all stupid. I dont have detailed info on how the Lebanese soldiers were killed.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


Yes. It would be unfortunate and sad, but not even in the same ballpark as throwing molotav cocktails at a synagoge. That you are having trouble with this distinction amazes me.

Im afraid, after many years, such assertions dont amaze me.

[germanos]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


My analysis - Israel IS held to the same standards, or higher ones.

bolding mine


Israel is not being held to higher standards.

Or are you claiming that Belgium would have gotten away with laying waste to Luxembourgs infrastructure in the example you have given?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos


bolding mine


Israel is not being held to higher standards.

Or are you claiming that Belgium would have gotten away with laying waste to Luxembourgs infrastructure in the example you have given?

Israel is not laying waste to Lebanons infrastructure. They are attacking transportation related sites that could be used by Hezbollah to move forces, resupply, or move hostages. Has anyone heard of any attacks on Leb infrastructure in the coastal area of North of Beirut? I havent, and i presume its because thats the Maronite area, where Hezbollah does not operate.

Yes, if Belgium were in the same situation, and doing what Israel is doing, the world would be applauding it, and supporting it. Hell, its impossible to imagine a smaller country than Belgium (like Luxembourg) doing those things to Belgium, cause Belgium wouldnt tolerate it. Only a larger and stronger country could get away with doing such things to Belgium.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Theyre being quite serious, and not at all stupid. I dont have detailed info on how the Lebanese soldiers were killed.

first bits of info

"An Israel Defense Forces spokesman said the IDF was investigating the strike on the military posts. "In principle the Israeli military does not target Lebanese soldiers," the spokesman said.

The northern sectors hit early Monday are far off from Israel, and in zones where the Hezbollah is not known to operate.

The IDF said it had targeted radar stations there, because they had been used by Hezbollah to hit a warship Friday. It all but accused the Lebanese military of lending its support to Hezbollah. "

[germanos]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Israel is not laying waste to Lebanons infrastructure. They are attacking transportation related sites

sorry, can't argue against that

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Ecthy


20,000? Genocide!

Genocide is not about the numbers, but about the intent.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Theyre being quite serious, and not at all stupid. I dont have detailed info on how the Lebanese soldiers were killed.

You're half right. It's either seriously stupid or stupidly serious. It's clear that Israel has no real plan beyond the painfully unrealistic idea of reigniting the Lebanese civil war. The Lebanese Army (which is mostly Shia) is simply not going to do Israel's dirty work.

Yes, if Belgium were in the same situation, and doing what Israel is doing, the world would be applauding it, and supporting it. Hell, its impossible to imagine a smaller country than Belgium (like Luxembourg) doing those things to Belgium, cause Belgium wouldnt tolerate it. Only a larger and stronger country could get away with doing such things to Belgium.

Quite a peculiar view you've got there. Normal countries would start off with a bit of sabre-rattling, demands, diplomacy etc. War as a last resort.