Middle East thread continued

[DinoDoc]

... as can be seen by the widespread international approval of the actions and the blessing and backing of the international community and its support in this action.

So proportionality is in the eye of the beholder?

[Kuciwalker]

Punishment should be proportionate to the crime. A response should be exactly as much as necessary to stop the crime in progress.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by GePap
In blaming the Lebanese government and in hitting widely in Lebanon, specially the blockade and hitting civilian infrastructure they seek to force the Lebanese government into taking on Hizbullah without themselves having to repeat 1982. The problem is that by hitting civilian infrastructure, by blockading, they make it HARDER for the Lebanese government to do something that given Lebanon's ehtnic patchwork and its history was already a difficult thing to do. Israel has also not offered any significant change to the realities that have allowed Hizbullah to lay claim to still being "the resistance."

I agree with GePap here. It seems sort of counterproductive to destroy assests the Lebanese goverment would need for it to move against Hezbolla. If they weren't able to before, I don't see how they are going to be able to now that bridges are out and other infrastructure is destroyed.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

And what was Hizbullah's attack on the IDF forces a proportional response to? Unilaterally pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank?

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
So proportionality is in the eye of the beholder?

Beyond the philosophical debate of whether anythign is actually objective vs., subjective:

No.

That statement was made to show that there was general widespread global aggrement with what the US did. That agreement in an of itself does not mean the action was proportionate. It is evidence though that when explored by most people in the world, the US action was a valid reponse to what had occured. It gives backing to the idea that most reasonable people, when confronted with the idea of proportional action would agree that the US reponse to 9/11 (with regards to AQ) was proportionate. Therefore there must be something to the arguement that it was proportionate.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Punishment should be proportionate to the crime. A response should be exactly as much as necessary to stop the crime in progress.

The raid ended, the soldiers were captured. The "criminal action" in your analogy was over.

What we see now is "the punishement."

[GePap]

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
And what was Hizbullah's attack on the IDF forces a proportional response to? Unilaterally pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank?

Hizbullah for months had been making it known (to the Israelis) that they were looking to capture IDF soldiers to use them as bargaining chips in their attempt to swap the soldier for the few remaining Lebanese prisoners, and possibly Palestinian prisoners.

[Jaguar]

A kidnapping is a crime in progress until the person kidnapped is freed.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
The raid ended, the soldiers were captured. The "criminal action" in your analogy was over.

A kidnapping ends when the targets have been secured?

Regardless of the answer to that, I'm speaking of the more general problem needing to be solved - that of the existance of a heavily armed group devoted to the complete destruction of Israel, one that actually attacks Israel. Israel's leadership has decided (correctly or not, time will tell) that these attacks are the only way to force Lebanon to send the army south* and disarm Hezbollah.

What we see now is "the punishement."

Only if there's no rebuilding. Foreign aid, preferably coming at least in part from Israel, is crucial to preventing Hezbollah from regaining any power it loses if/when the current conflict is resolved.

* as required by UN Resolution 1559

[GePap]

Originally posted by Jaguar
A kidnapping is a crime in progress until the person kidnapped is freed.

Most of Israels actions have no relevance to actually freeing the soldiers in question.

Besides, Statements by Israel's leaders make it clear that thier attacks are vased on goals far beyond those of merely freeing the soldiers. IN fact, if Hizbullah were to drop the two guys off at the border tommorrow, and everything else remains the same Israel would still be attacking.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Only if there's no rebuilding. Foreign aid, preferably coming at least in part from Israel, is crucial to preventing Hezbollah from regaining any power it loses if/when the current conflict is resolved.

Simple rebuilding does not fix the ethnic and historical reasons for why the single largest ethnic group in Lebanon sees Hizbullah as their rightful political representatives.

Fixing that will require more than money. It would probably require the Israelis to sit down with the Lebanese, INCLUDING Hizbullah.

[Kuciwalker]

Simple rebuilding does not fix the ethnic and historical reasons for why the single largest ethnic group in Lebanon sees Hizbullah as their rightful political representatives.

It's not supposed to. It's supposed to help the north and the Lebanese government, which need to be strong to control the south and fill the power vacuum resulting from Hezbollah's demise.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Simple rebuilding does not fix the ethnic and historical reasons for why the single largest ethnic group in Lebanon sees Hizbullah as their rightful political representatives.

It's not supposed to. It's supposed to help the north and the Lebanese government, which need to be strong to control the south and fill the power vacuum resulting from Hezbollah's demise.

Except that the Shia in the south aren't going to let "the north" rule them without their input, IE, HIzbullah.

[Kuciwalker]

They don't have a ****ing choice if they lose and the Lebanese army walks in and fills the power vacuum.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
They don't have a ****ing choice if they lose and the Lebanese army walks in and fills the power vacuum.

Yes they do, its called Civil War.

Oh, and which groups makes up the largest poriton of the Lebanse Army? That's right, poor Shia from the South!