Israeli ground forces enter southern Gaza - CNN

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
so in that case then, everytime the israeli army captures a palestinian in gaza or the west bank he is being "kidnapped" then since they are not at war.

you cant have it both ways.

If the Israeli goverment takes into custody individuals who are about to attack Israeli citizens or have in the past, that is a judicial matter.

Did this specific soldier commit a crime in "Palestine"?

No he did not.

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
furthermore, if they are not at war, then israels invasion of gaza is illegal.

you cant have it both ways.

Israeli's arresting people attacking Israeli citizens or planning to is a judicial matter. It is not kidnapping.



YOU can not have it both ways either. If they are at war, then Israel is justified in bombing the Palestinians into the stone age, or cutting off ISRAELI power or ISRAELI water, or preventing travel from ports from Israel to Palestine, or from airports to Israel or Palestine, and stopping all trade and acess, between Israel and Palestine.

There is no such thing as an illegal war. Law is a stick and without the threat of enforcment followerd up by violence, there is no law.

Internationalist nut jobs with no moral footing say the word "law" when in fact, it is not law. Law implies a moral or legal obligation. There is no legal or moral obligation involved, nor is there a threat of force to ensure compliance, it is not law.

It has no moral or legal conotation.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


They do have formal diplomatic relations though, IIUC, and extensive trade, tourism, etc.

He didn't mention that did he?

[Geronimo]

Has Hamas targeted civilians since they came to power? If not then this is all insurection just like the attacks on coalition soldiers in Iraq and it's not really terrorism at all.

If organizations with a long record of terrorism appear to switch from terrorism to insurrection against military forces then they will soon no longer deserve condemnation for their methods. Hamas has legitimate grievances of an extremely urgent sort. It's the elected government of people whose lives are miserable and an area whose economy is non viable due to a military occupation.

Their borders are being unilaterally determined by this occupier which claims to an entirely seperate country (ie they refuse to enfranchise the occupied population).

If Hamas keeps going with actions exclusively directed against IDF and IDF soliders in uniform in light of the various causi belli I can't see how any outside observer could blame them.

This is exactly like iraqis attacking US men and women in uniform in Iraq.


Of course my attitude will completely change if I find that Hamas was behind any of the rocket attacks directed against areas with no significant military targets or any other attacks targeting civilians. Maybe there was such an attack since Hamas came to power that Hamas was behind which I missed hearing about.

[Vesayen]

[SIZE=1]

Of course my attitude will completely change if I find that Hamas was behind any of the rocket attacks directed against areas with no significant military targets or any other attacks targeting civilians. Maybe there was such an attack since Hamas came to power that Hamas was behind which I missed hearing about.

Already happened(for months).

Ask someone else for links.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I think you also have to look on who does the capturing. If it's an army, working at a government's orders, then it's the usual POW/arrest/whatever. If it's a group of thugs, it's a kidnapping.

its clear that these men are operating with the consent of the PA, which makes them de facto agents of the PA, which in turn means that they are acting as official agents of the PA. the soldier is acting in an official capacity as an agent of the israeli government. under international law that makes the capture of this israeli soldier a capture and not an abduction.

and one more point, if a state of war doesnt exist between israel and the PA, then this whole invasion thing/ targeting of palestinian citizens by IDF airstrikes is illegal under international law unless the UN security council authorizes it.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Solver
It's interesting that Syria should complain about this being an "aggressive act" when the two countries don't even have a peace treaty.

I'm sure the US and South Korea would complain if North Korea were to buzz the Cheong Wa Dae in South Korea. We might even call it an "aggressive act".

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia

I think you also have to look on who does the capturing. If it's an army, working at a government's orders, then it's the usual POW/arrest/whatever. If it's a group of thugs, it's a kidnapping.

its clear that these men are operating with the consent of the PA, which makes them de facto agents of the PA, which in turn means that they are acting as official agents of the PA. the soldier is acting in an official capacity as an agent of the israeli government. under international law that makes the capture of this israeli soldier a capture and not an abduction.

and one more point, if a state of war doesnt exist between israel and the PA, then this whole invasion thing/ targeting of palestinian citizens by IDF airstrikes is illegal under international law unless the UN security council authorizes it.

Hamass has ENDORCED their actions publicly as of yesterday and even though they were proboably acting on behalf of the goverment, this makes it official.

International law does not exist. It does not carry the moral or legal imperative of national law, nor does it have any enforcment.

[Geronimo]

It's oddly refreshing to see a Hamas campaign that doesn't revolve around targeting civilians. I have to admit it seems too good to be true. Can anybody confirm that they have not been involved in any civilian attacks since taking power?

It also feels more than a little weird to be on the same side of the fence as LoA on a israel/pal thread.

[Vesayen]

Groups acting under hamass orders or with their funding have killed Israeli civilians since they came into power.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Groups acting under hamass orders or with their funding have killed Israeli civilians since they came into power.

is that assumed? Is it simply assumed that because Hamas won the elections all palistinian terrorists operations have their blessing? Because there was the little matter of the serious infighting between pals recently.

On the other hand if you meant that Hamas itself or a recognized branch of it attacked civilians in this time then I would be grateful if you could cite it or provide details to help me find it myself because that would drastically alter my perception of the current situation.

[Eli]

It's oddly refreshing to see a Hamas campaign that doesn't revolve around targeting civilians. I have to admit it seems too good to be true. Can anybody confirm that they have not been involved in any civilian attacks since taking power?

There was this "hudna" thingie, which is a glorified cease fire. Hamas did reduce significantly it's attacks on Israel, but not entirely. IIRC it's men were involved in some of the shelling of Sderot.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

International law does not exist. It does not carry the moral or legal imperative of national law, nor does it have any enforcment.

how ignorant is that?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Eli

It's oddly refreshing to see a Hamas campaign that doesn't revolve around targeting civilians. I have to admit it seems too good to be true. Can anybody confirm that they have not been involved in any civilian attacks since taking power?

There was this "hudna" thingie, which is a glorified cease fire. Hamas did reduce significantly it's attacks on Israel, but not entirely. IIRC it's men were involved in some of the shelling of Sderot.

Any military targets in the immediate vicinity of Sderot?

[Eli]

Any military targets in the immediate vicinity of Sderot?

It's 2km from the north-eastern border of Gaza, so I guess there are stuff there, but nothing major. Anyway, even the Kassam is not that inaccurate, you cant hit a city while not aiming at it, especially when you launch 5-10 rockets a day.

Roughly it went this way:
Hamas got elected, a cease fire began.
Mostly other organizations shelled Sderot and made various other nefarious attempts. Hamas didnt use it's power to stop that.
Israel retaliated against those organizations, commiting a series of tactical ****ups which killed lots of Pal civilians.

And then the current mess began.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

YOU can not have it both ways either. If they are at war, then Israel is justified in bombing the Palestinians into the stone age, or cutting off ISRAELI power or ISRAELI water, or preventing travel from ports from Israel to Palestine, or from airports to Israel or Palestine, and stopping all trade and acess, between Israel and Palestine.

There is no such thing as an illegal war. Law is a stick and without the threat of enforcment followerd up by violence, there is no law.

Internationalist nut jobs with no moral footing say the word "law" when in fact, it is not law. Law implies a moral or legal obligation. There is no legal or moral obligation involved, nor is there a threat of force to ensure compliance, it is not law.

It has no moral or legal conotation.

I never said that they were not justified if they were at war. but you keep on fliflopping between whether they are at war or not. israel is justified in doing anything that does not violate the geneva conventions, which have been signed and ratified by israel. which means they cannot target civilians and bomb the country mercilessly into the stoneage. yet again, you are constrained by international law.