Israeli ground forces enter southern Gaza - CNN

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Colon™
LOTM, to me it's more of a question whether the reaction is proportionate, rather than whether we're using the right terminology. You almost make it seem as if had the PA officially declared war upon Israel, and had it been helding the soldier within its official capacity as government, there wouldn't have any reason for such a large scale military operation. If we're going with the hostage-taking anology, when was the last time a military launched tanks and bombed civilian infrastructure in order to free hostages? Isn't this usually more of a special-ops job?

Well I was responding spefically to a point about terminology.

From what Ive read about special ops, they can be used optimally in conjunction with conventional forces, and Id be surprised if the IDF wasnt also using spec ops.

In Israel, from I can gather, the basic question is what to do about the future. Few Israelis think theres any prospect of negotiating with Hamas. Olmert, who stands behind the withdrawl from Gaza, has proposed withdrawing from most of the West Bank at some point in the not too distant future. A unilateral withdrawl to more defensible positions. Possibly with the assertion that the point of withdrawl would be the new permanent boundary. The Israeli Right - the Likud - is staunchly opposed to any further unilateral withdrawls, and points to the continuing violence coming out of Gaza to assert that withdrawl from the West Bank would only make things worse, and to attack the Olmert govt as weak. Olmert has engaged in what most Israelis think of as restraint - focusing on counter battery fire in Gaza (hitting points from which rockets are fired at Israel) and attacking mainly Islamic Jihad operatives. As Hamas has escalated its attacks, they have also targeted Hamas military operatives, but have refrained from attacking Hamas political leaders. And have refrained from entering Gaza. And continuing to reach out to Abbas, and to talk to the EU about ways to make the economic sanctions less harmful to Pal civilians. The kidnapping was the straw that broke the camels back - the govt of Israel could not accept this without doing their utmost to get Shalit back, including conventional as well as spec op activity, and if its seen as a big response - well maybe its time the Pal street learned that Israel left Gaza out of choice, and wasnt chased out by Hamas, as Hamas claims.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Eli
No electricity=> No lights => The side without night vision systems is paralized at night.

I really hope this is you speaking, and not the IDF's official excuse.

[Harry Tuttle]

Israeli F-15s just buzzed the home of the President of Syria. Woah, balls.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Israeli F-15s just buzzed the home of the President of Syria. Woah, balls.

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Syria said it fired on Israeli warplanes Wednesday as they flew over the home of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, heightening regional tensions over the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier.

"The overflight by two Israeli planes near the Syrian shores is an aggressive act and a provocation," The Associated Press quoted Syria's television news, which quoted an Information Ministry official.

It said "national air defenses opened fire in the direction of the planes, and they dispersed."

Israel Defense Forces confirmed that Israeli planes had flown over the Syrian president's country home and Israeli television reported al-Assad was at home at the time.

The flyover occurred three days after Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit was kidnapped inside Israel. He is believed to be held captive by groups linked with Syria.

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres has complained that Syria allowed Hamas political leaders based in Damascus to order Shalit's kidnapping.

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Army Radio Wednesday that Israel sought to assassinate Hamas' Syria-based political chief, Khalid Meshaal, according to The Associated Press.

Three Palestinian militant groups said they were behind the 19-year-old corporal's kidnapping on Sunday: Hamas' military wing Izzedine al Qassam, the Army of Islam and the Popular Resistance Committees. The last group also claims to hold another hostage: 18-year-old Israeli settler Eliyahu Yitzhak Asheri.

Overnight Israeli aircraft hit Gaza's main electricity plant and key bridges that link the the Palestinian territory's northern and southern regions. (Watch a bomber's view of the airstrike -- 2:21)

Later on Wednesday Israel issued a warning to residents of northern Gaza to leave their homes. As dusk fell, Israeli tanks could be seen firing into the northern Gaza area, which Palestinians have been using for months to fire rockets at Israel.

Earlier raids were focused on the southern end of the territory.

The Hamas-dominated Palestinian Authority on Wednesday called for a swap with Israel -- Shalit in exchange for thousands of jailed Palestinians.

The PRC said the settler, Asheri, would be "butchered" unless Israel stopped its raid into southern Gaza.

In addition, The Associated Press reported that militants allied with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party claimed to hold a third captive, a 62-year-old Israeli from the central city of Rishon Lezion, whom they did not name.

Israeli police told AP that a 62-year-old man was missing, whom they identified as Noah Moskovitch.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya of Hamas told Reuters that Israel is worsening the crisis with its raids.

"We stress that the occupation must stop the military escalation in order not to complicate the situation and worsen the crisis," said Haniya.

"We are following the existing crisis relating to the missing soldier ... We hope that this case will be a concluded in a suitable way."

No casualties have been reported in the Israeli military raids, the largest since Israel pulled thousands of troops and settlers from Gaza last year after 38 years of occupation.

Taher Nono, a spokesman for the Palestinian Authority Foreign Ministry, said the ministry was calling on Arab governments to press for a "negotiated settlement" for the released of the Israeli soldier in exchange for jailed Palestinians, "especially women, children, the elderly and the sick prisoners" and long-term inmates.

The Palestinian Authority government said that Israel holds some 9,800 Palestinian prisoners.

Israeli Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mark Regev said to bargain with the Palestinian Authority over hostages would only result in more hostage incidents.

"People who take civilians and soldiers hostage and try to get ransom or to threaten us, it will not benefit them," Regev said. "It has to be a clear message, I think, from all democracies: If you take a hostage you are outside international norms, and you cannot expect to gain from hostage-taking."

'All targets' considered
Israel also conducted strikes on "open areas of southern Gaza Strip" on Wednesday.

The AP reported an Israeli airstrike on Rafah, Gaza, quoting witnesses who said two missiles fell about 200 meters apart, one in an empty training camp for Hamas. The other rocket hit an empty field nearby, and witnesses said they saw militants running away from the missile.

Israeli troops and armored vehicles crossed into southern Gaza early Wednesday, Israel's Defense Ministry said, with soldiers backed by artillery setting out from Kerem Shalom into Rafah.

The Israelis took up positions in Gaza shortly before 3 a.m. (8 p.m. ET) in the area where Shalit was abducted Sunday. Two other Israeli soldiers were killed in the weekend raid by Palestinian militants who tunneled into Israel.

Capt. Noa Meir, a military spokeswoman, said Israeli commanders have a "general idea" where Shalit was being held. (Watch the rescue operation begin -- 1:40)

Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told his parliament Tuesday to expect "an extended campaign against the Palestinian Authority" unless Shalit was released.

"All targets" would be considered for possible action, Olmert said the day after ruling out any deals with militants for Shalit's release.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I really hope this is you speaking, and not the IDF's official excuse.

I dont know what the IDFs excuses are, but if I were the one who had to enter one of world's densest, disorganized and hostile cities, I would've prefered my enemy to see as little of me as possible.

Israeli F-15s just buzzed the home of the President of Syria. Woah, balls.

That's the second time. It was already done about two years ago.

[Solver]

It's interesting that Syria should complain about this being an "aggressive act" when the two countries don't even have a peace treaty.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
why has the western press used the word "kidnapped" for the israeli soldier. Why not say that he was "captured" or became a "prisoner of war" why is it when israel captures palestinians it is called "captured" and not "kidnapped"

Well, that implies they were at war. Were they? If so, by the same standard Israel would be justified bombing the gaza strip into dust.

The people who did the kidnapping are Hamas, the Palestinian goverment. Further, they immediatly made demands for the release of some Israeli prisoners.

[Colon™]

Originally posted by Solver
It's interesting that Syria should complain about this being an "aggressive act" when the two countries don't even have a peace treaty.

Japan and Russia don't have a peace treaty either.

[Wezil]

What is the point of 'buzzing' Assad? I guess the implied threat being that they can/will drop ordinance on him...but will they?

It seems like an empty threat.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Colon™


Japan and Russia don't have a peace treaty either.

They do have formal diplomatic relations though, IIUC, and extensive trade, tourism, etc.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wezil
What is the point of 'buzzing' Assad? I guess the implied threat being that they can/will drop ordinance on him...but will they?

It seems like an empty threat.

To make him lose face.

[Wezil]

Yes, I can see that. Syrian air defences are a little thin it would appear.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

so in that case then, everytime the israeli army captures a palestinian in gaza or the west bank he is being "kidnapped" then since they are not at war.

you cant have it both ways.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

furthermore, if they are not at war, then israels invasion of gaza is illegal.

you cant have it both ways.

[Eli]

I think you also have to look on who does the capturing. If it's an army, working at a government's orders, then it's the usual POW/arrest/whatever. If it's a group of thugs, it's a kidnapping.