Israeli ground forces enter southern Gaza - CNN

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
so pretty illegal then, seeing how the invasion of afghanistan was an illegal one.

How so?

[Arrian]

And the threadjack gathers steam.

Then again, what can you really say about the original topic? The whole situation is FUBAR.

-Arrian

[Ming]

Yep... let's get back on topic.

[Solver]

The PA militants just blew a hole in the fence on the Egyptian border. Trying to run away, or smuggle something through?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


I agree.
On the side of Israel there´s the zionist movement which wants Erech Israel, i.e. great Israel including the westbank and Gaza strip.

Erech Israel - thats where Ben Gurion raised an army of dead Maccabees, to go win the battle of Minas Jerusalem? Surely you mean Eretz Israel?

which simply means the land of Israel.

There are movements that want to annex the West Bank and Gaza strip, but they are hardly all of the Zionist movement. The Israeli Labour party, which has proposed giving up large parts of the West Bank is the principle heir of the labor zionist movement, and Meretz, some of whose members advocate giving up ALL of the West Bank, is the heir of the left wing of the labor zionist movement.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
thje Israeli leadership, well, if they all die tommorrow I would not care..

Thats it. Red line crossed. Going on the ignore list.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Thats it. Red line crossed. Going on the ignore list.

What a faithful expression of Gepap's words you put in there

[Arrian]

But not the Pal leadership, of course. They're just thugs, so it's ok to not mind them dying.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Erech Israel - thats where Ben Gurion raised an army of dead Maccabees, to go win the battle of Minas Jerusalem?

With Anduril, Flame of the West held aloft.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
But not the Pal leadership, of course. They're just thugs, so it's ok to not mind them dying.

-Arrian

The Hamas leadership are leaders of a terrorist organization. Nonetheless I wouldnt go posting about whether I cared or not if they died - who here cares what deaths I care about - Im not so narcissitic to think anyone does. But yes, what offended me was reference to the deaths of Ehud Olmert, Haim Ramon, Amir Peretz, Nobel Laureate Shimon Peres, etc. The democratically elected govt of Israel, the govt composed of those who had the courage to support the Gaza withdrawl plan, the govt that has exercized restraint by NOT going into Gaza until now despite constant baiting by Netanyahu and the Likud, the govt that still holds out a hand of peace to Abbas, the govt that has directed its troops in the current operation to try to limit harm to civilians, the govt that is the best hope for peace that Israel has had in years.

I was tempted to reply with my own feelings (or lack thereof) about the demise of the poster. I decided that would be immature and narcisstic, and would be lowering myself to his level. I decided that if reading his posts leads me to that, its better not to read them.

[lord of the mark]

a column from Haaretz

"Analysis / An operation with two goals

By Aluf Benn

Nine and a half months after completion of the pullout from the Gaza Strip, the IDF reoccupied it. The horror scenario of those who objected to the pullout has come true. Israel discovered that it could not just leave and throw away the key, that the Green Line in Gaza did not deter the Palestinians, and that the Palestinians ignored Israeli threats of harsh retaliation.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warded off the IDF's proposals for a ground operation against the Qassam launchers in recent weeks, preferring to preserve the cease-fire with Hamas, as flimsy as it was. He assessed that Israel could withstand the Qassams and attempted attacks by smaller organizations like Islamic Jihad and Popular Resistance Committees, while continuing air strikes against specific, isolated targets. But a confrontation with Hamas is a problem of a totally different magnitude. This is a large, well-armed organization with a political wing as cover.


Sunday's attack on the Kerem Shalom outpost and kidnapping of Gilad Shalit removed Olmert's inhibitions. Hamas had crossed the fence and attacked Israel, thereby ending the cease-fire. Olmert waited two more days to receive international backing and improve military plans, until authorizing the operation. He was convinced that these were not rogue Hamas members, as was previously believed, but a well organized policy of Hamas' military wing, which enjoys the full backing of the "civilian" government.

Now the question is, what is the exit strategy? Past experience teaches that it is easy to enter territories where there is a security vacuum, like south Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and very difficult to leave them without a strong body to take over responsibility.

The operation began with the sending of troops to the southern Gaza Strip in a bid to return the abducted soldier. It soon expanded to a move against Qassams in the north, a menacing flight over the Syrian president's palace, and sweeping action against Hamas in the West Bank. This is war on all fronts, and it is hard to envision how it will end.

Even if the soldier is returned, it would not solve the Qassam problem and ensure quiet.

Olmert has decided not to negotiate with the kidnappers and not to release Palestinian prisoners in exchange for Shalit's return. Given this, it appears that Israel is striving toward a broader goal that will ensure quiet for a longer period. Olmert also understands that if the fighting continues, he can forget about the unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank. It will be difficult enough for him to explain the point for carrying out a deep pullout from the West Bank as the IDF reoccupies the Gaza Strip.

Two possible goals come to mind: one is an internationally backed cease-fire, similar to the Grapes of Wrath understandings achieved in Lebanon in the 1990s. The Summer Rains understandings may include the curtailing of the assassinations in exchange for the cessation of Qassam fire. The question is whether there is a responsible body in Gaza with which to make such a deal, as was the case with Hezbollah in Lebanon.

The second, more ambitious target, would be toppling the Hamas government and reinstating Fatah. This would be vindicated in the world as a move against a criminal terror government and creating a partner for future negotiations over the West Bank. The question is whether Israel has enough power to overthrow the Palestinian government. "

[Arrian]

The second, more ambitious target, would be toppling the Hamas government and reinstating Fatah. This would be vindicated in the world as a move against a criminal terror government and creating a partner for future negotiations over the West Bank.

Sometime shortly before writing this, the writer smoked a bunch of crack.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


Sometime shortly before writing this, the writer smoked a bunch of crack.

-Arrian

I dont think he meant that they set up Fatah directly. But they weaken Hamas enough, so that Fatah wins in the ongoing internal struggle. Certainly they can weaken Hamas materially. The writer may well believe that showing Hamas to be weak and to be bringing on Israeli incursions weakens Hamas politically. Obviously theres a school of thought that says incursions like this ALWAYS lead to rallying around the extremists. Id rather not get into that perpetual argument - I think theres something to be said for both sides of it - I dont think the writer is smoking crack though.

Theres a good bit of evidence that Egypt and other arab states (but not Syria) are getting quite sick of Hamas.

[Arrian]

I meant specifically the idea that "the World" would view Israeli undermining/deposing of Hamas as a good thing. That's laugh-out-loud funny.

-Arrian

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Geronimo


I'm sure the US and South Korea would complain if North Korea were to buzz the Cheong Wa Dae in South Korea. We might even call it an "aggressive act".

I cant think of other words but bat**** crazy to qualify what Israel did flying over the Syria, and I generally support Israel.


wtf was that?