The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Vesayen



G-D spoke to Abraham. Hardly an act of faith.

Eh, yeah, but that is one of the most basic examples of Faith, from a Christian perspective. Basically where Faith is discussed in greatest detail (Hebrews) Abraham is one of the biggest examples.

And where I mean not understanding, see this faith discussion. Also, Christians can/do have experential knowledge of God.

peace,
Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

Could someone please answer this question of mine ?

More then good enough.

Apologies, had other things on my plate.

Feel free to send me a pm with any questions you may have and I will answer as soon as I can.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Eh, yeah, but that is one of the most basic examples of Faith, from a Christian perspective. Basically where Faith is discussed in greatest detail (Hebrews) Abraham is one of the biggest examples.

And where I mean not understanding, see this faith discussion. Also, Christians can/do have experential knowledge of God.

peace,
Jon Miller

I did not say Christians do not/can't have experential knowledge of G-D. You gave Abraham as an example. It was not an issue of faith for Abraham. He knew. He didn't have faith,he did not need it. He has proof.

[Jon Miller]

But the example of him (if you read Hebrews) would tell you what Christians refer to when they say Faith.

JM

[Vesayen]

Christians, when they refer to faith, they refer to some spiritual feeling where they "know" their deity. It does not require facts, physical proof, or logic-it defies all of that.

Faith in the Christian tradition is super-natural, entirley above and seperate from the physical universe and not based on it.

[Jon Miller]

As I said, I don't think you understand as much about Christianity as you say you do.

JM

[Flip McWho]

Religion is so fascinating.

One thing for JM -

see I would say that I beleive that every book reveals truth of a type

If every book reveals truth then how are you supposed to measure the 'worth' of each book?

[Ben Kenobi]

This view is not unanimous in Judaism but.. G-D does not test us. We don't reconcile inconsistancies our holy scriptures or in our lives by saying "G-D tests us this way!" and thus make G-D look like a petty jackass.

Right, so the Christians made up the entire book of Job to make God look like a jackass.

Look, it's one thing to write off a book that you disagree with, quite another to sit down and try to figure out why this book would be considered so important to be part of the septuagint. Given it's antiquity, it's far older then most of the other biblical books.

Why is it hard to believe that suffering can improve one's faith? In Job we see it is entirely possible for a righteous man who fears God to suffer, something that is very difficult to understand, and causes many to fall away. Many folks feel that if they just believe in God their troubles will vanish, and they are discouraged when sometimes their troubles actually increase.

[Ben Kenobi]

But how deserving of their fate were the Egyptians? What could they have possibly done to prevent their own deaths? God did not give the Egyptians a choice, even if he gave Pharaoh a choice.

I'm thinking after about the first 3 plagues, that I would believe in this strange God of Moses, and flee Egypt.

The same people that are currently trying to make sure MLK Jr's writings aren't auctioned off to the highest bidder by his estate.

That is to say, sometimes something someone makes can have value for someone other than the someone who made it.

Now, if Dr. King were alive, would it be your right to preserve something he wanted destroyed? You may love his work, but it is his creation and it belongs to him.

God created the world and the people within it with his own ideas in my mind, with his own values, but the people within this world have, by whatever means, created their own values that differ from those of God. It is not fair for God to punish us when we follow our own values (which may be derived from what he tells us to do) when he will not explain what his own values are.

Okay, let's go very slowly here. First off, is it true that God does not teach us what his values are? I would argue that we all have a conscience that while it can be overriden tries to tell us what is right and what is wrong. It makes sense if he created us, that he would also give us the means in which to understand him to some degree.

You say that we cannot understand God and his plan, and I say that this is false. God is omnipotent; he could describe it to us in a useful way if he gave enough of a **** to do so.

I didn't say that we could not understand any of God's plan, just that we cannot understand all of the plan for which he has for us.

Merciful are his actions now? If a bully comes up to me, punches me in the face, and then says, "That's your first warning. If you don't do what I want you to do, I'm going to cut your balls off," is he merciful for punching me first rather than cutting my balls off to begin with?

Ok. Now suppose I kept a gang, and that gang used to beat up little kids and steal their lunch money. I was the ringleader. That's pharoah. Now, if one guy who gets tired of his friends getting beat up decides to slug pharaoh, would it be considered the same? Now, what if that same man rather then slugging pharaoh, warns pharoah to stop mistreating his friends bad things are going to happen to hiim.

I still say, what choice did the Egyptian citizen have in this matter?

They could have forced Pharaohs hand by shipping the Egyptians out of Egypt, as they finally did after the passover.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Right, so the Christians made up the entire book of Job to make God look like a jackass.

Look, it's one thing to write off a book that you disagree with, quite another to sit down and try to figure out why this book would be considered so important to be part of the septuagint. Given it's antiquity, it's far older then most of the other biblical books.

Why is it hard to believe that suffering can improve one's faith? In Job we see it is entirely possible for a righteous man who fears God to suffer, something that is very difficult to understand, and causes many to fall away. Many folks feel that if they just believe in God their troubles will vanish, and they are discouraged when sometimes their troubles actually increase.

The book of Job is not in the Torah.

Its late and i'm sleepy... i'll be back on this thread tommorow.

[Ben Kenobi]

This little factoid is important, for me. How many of the Christians on this board who argue fervently for their faith would still hold the beliefs they have had they not been born Christian?

Convert here. I didn't really get to know Christ until after I went to university.

While many here have obviously thought about why they are Christian, and what they think about being Christian, how many here have thought about whether or not they should be Christian, and whether or not other faiths might have more value or truth?

It's a good question.

For me it was a couple of things. None of the other religions claimed the things that Christianity does, that their messiah died on the cross and after three days rose again. They all have ideas about the way in which the world works, but they do not make the historical claim.

So what this becomes is twofold. Either Christianity is dreadfully wrong, and much more false in teaching that Christ was the son of God, or they are correct in their claim.

Now when I asked that question, how can we be sure that what the Christians believe is correct, I found myself having to ask the question if we treat the bible as we would any other historical grounds, on what basis can I believe in what ancient history teaches and yet reject the bible. The bible, just like any other source has it's problems but it is no different then say other sources.

Therefore, in order to accept the rest of ancient history, I had to say that the Christian bible should also be true. Yes, Christians make the claim that the material world is not all there are, and that God intervenes on the world through miracles. However, one is left with the account of the Gospels and the challenge. If we believe that the empty tomb is true, how do we explain how the tomb got empty if we reject the amazing Christian claim of the resurrection. I could not, and therefore, accepted the resurrection as the most plausible explanation for the events recorded in the Gospels.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're the one who believes that an embryo, zygote or foetus is a human life. Do tell me exactly how they managed to fill the earth with violence from the confines of the womb.

I didn't ever say they were guilty or responsible for filling the earth with violence. In fact, I went out of my way to say that what hope could there be for children born into such a world?

What links Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, and the Harappan civilizations ?

Rivers.

What do rivers do ?

Flood.

Eh, I think the accounts you are speaking of refer to something more then just a river flooding.

I find more humorous your inability to read my posts correctly. Saul disobeyed his god's instructions to 'utterly destroy' the Amalekites.

Ok, good. Now, the question is why. Did he do so to try to make himself look better in the eyes of God?

Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

Yes you are quite right that Saul decided to sacrifice the good things to God, but only after this part:

Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, "Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal."

When Samuel reached him, Saul said, "The LORD bless you! I have carried out the LORD's instructions."

But Samuel said, "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?"

Why did you not obey the LORD Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD "

Notice that the Hebrews didn't actually say, 'Hold on god, surely not all the Amalekites were responsible, not the little kiddy-winkies too!'

Actually that is exactly what they did with the Kenites.

No; they thought they'd make themselves look good in genocidal Jehovah's eyes by doing this:

Yet why then did Samuel rebuke Saul for offering the good things to God as a sacrifice after he got caught red handed?

I blame their god, who, although apparently able to fix its eye on the sparrow, apparently can't find the time in its busy schedule to discriminate between the guilty and the non-guilty, the human and the animal.

Yet, as the passage I quote, Saul deliberately makes the distinction between the Kenites and the Amalekites.

[CrONoS]

Good Thread!

[CrONoS]

Fear And Trembling - S. Kierkegaard @ one of his best nevrotic book@

Or

Eliphas Levi: Les mytères de la Kabbale.

En Lui était la Vie et la Vie était la Lumière des hommes et la Lumière brillait dans les ténèbres, et les ténèbres ne l’ont pas reçue

[CrONoS]

QFT

Originally posted by Jon Miller
As I said, I don't think you understand as much about Christianity as you say you do.

JM