World Football Thread IX - Weltmeisterschaft Ausgabe

[Harovan]

Originally posted by SpencerH
You're mixing two incidents:

The shirt pulling travesty was the spain- ukraine match where the player ran through the shorts pulling, ran 5 more m, had a shot on goal, then fell down with arm flailing and other requisite theatrics.

Result- red card. PK and goal, end of match

Sobelowski stupidly contacted the German player (who promptly fell down as if he had been poleaxed)

Result- yellow/red card. Poland down to 10 men, loss of match

1) Yes I was mixing 2 incidents. It's been getting late and I was just commenting your response to DoY without putting too much research in it.

2) I correct my argument to: If I already have a yellow card booked, I don't "contact a player stupidly". And if I do, I deserve the consequences.

Point still stands.

3) "Contacting a player stupidly" is a hilarious word for belittling a foul. I got to remember this.

4) I'm not Klose so I can't say what really happened, but in this large distance from the goal provoking a free kick doesn't make much sense. If I'm an attacker and have the ball, my first thought is not "Wonderful, now I can dive". I try to make something out of the pass and even if I'm prone to diving (like some players undoubtly are) I'd rather go forth to a better shoot position.

5) I have seen plenty yellow cards for diving, I don't remember if some occurred in this tournament, but generally diving is a punishable behavior and players are well aware of this. For instance Odonkor got a yellow for diving in the game Germany vs Japan (end of May), that's the last incident I remember for certain, but there were many more. It's hard to find them, since most statistics hide them under "non-sportsmanlike behavior", but nonetheless they exist.

6) Reducing a team to 10 is not automatically assuring their opponent victory.

[alva]

5) I have seen plenty yellow cards for diving,

There's not being given though SR. The balance isn't there yet.
The chance of getting a card are much smaller than getting one ( and the penalty as well) as a defender. so at the moment, it pays off to dive, it's a good strategy.

One rule I would like to see change is the size and shape of the big rectangle. You shouldn't be able to get a penalty when you're standing with your back to the goal, near the corner flag.

[Cort Haus]

Reducing a team to 10 is not automatically assuring their opponent victory.

Absolutely. Brazil had no probs brushing England aside with 10 men last time.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by alva

5) I have seen plenty yellow cards for diving,

There's not being given though SR. The balance isn't there yet.
The chance of getting a card are much smaller than getting one ( and the penalty as well) as a defender. so at the moment, it pays off to dive, it's a good strategy.

Yea, that's likely true. But it does just mean, that referees need to be much more consequent in all respects, physical fouls and diving. So for yesterday's incident, if Klose was really diving (which I'm not convinced of, but it's quite possible), probably the best solution would have been giving both Sobolewski and Klose a yellow, one for foul (no, it was not an "unlucky contact", sorry Spencer), and one for diving. Which wouldn't have changed the outcome, just that Klose would have to be careful in the game against Equador.

[reds4ever]

On the diving issue, the risk of punishment (and it's consequences) does not yet equal the potential "rewards" that diving can bring.

If you dive in the box you are looking at a penalty and reducing your opponents down to ten men if you are successfull. If you fail you MAY get a yellow card. In short, it's still a good gamble to take for the diver.

Players to watch out for are Cristianio Ronaldo, Robben and Je Cole.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by reds4ever
Players to watch out for are Cristianio Ronaldo, Robben and Je Cole.

Didier Drogba has a bit of a reputation in this department, too.

[alva]

If you dive in the box you are looking at a penalty and reducing your opponents down to ten men if you are successfull. If you fail you MAY get a yellow card. In short, it's still a good gamble to take for the diver.

Much better said, than I did.
English your mother tongue, is it?

[Cort Haus]

On the diving - I gather that for the refs to give a yellow they have to be absolutely sure that it was a dive, and not a stumble, or a fall from a fair challenge or a shoulder.

[alva]

Then conversely, then be damn absolutely, absolutely sure before giving a penalty and a red card, no. Those can and do decide games (a yellow probably won't).

I'm talking in general here, not any specific case.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Yea, that's likely true. But it does just mean, that referees need to be much more consequent in all respects, physical fouls and diving. So for yesterday's incident, if Klose was really diving (which I'm not convinced of, but it's quite possible), probably the best solution would have been giving both Sobolewski and Klose a yellow, one for foul (no, it was not an "unlucky contact", sorry Spencer), and one for diving. Which wouldn't have changed the outcome, just that Klose would have to be careful in the game against Equador.

I think its possible that Klose was trying to draw a foul from Sobolewski (who seems to have a reputation as a "hard tackler"). In my mind nothing else explains the sudden shift in direction when Klose received the pass. He virtually ran straight at Sobolewski who was at least 5 m toward center than Klose, behind the ball, and not moving very fast. Sobolewski, being an idiot, took the bait and stepped into Klose from the side and behind whereupon Klose promptly fell to the ground ('with much wailing and gnashing of teeth').

In my mind, its exactly the kind of calculated move that demeans great teams such as Germany.

My point though isnt that the ref shouldnt have called a foul but that he should have had the ability to judge to seriousness (as they still can with sliding tackles etc). He couldnt let it pass, after all Sobolewski did contact him and Klose was on the ground. Giving Sobolewski a yellow card for a minor contact that occured in the middle of the pitch and that didnt effect play was as wrong as the shorts pulling incident IMO.

Comments from Boruc

"I certainly don't think it deserved a second yellow," said keeper Artur Boruc, who was beaten by Oliver Neuville's injury-time strike.

"It also looked like the German player deliberately left his foot in. That was probably decisive although even then we thought we could hold out."

Sobolewski appeared to be backing out of a tackle on Germany striker Miroslav Klose before colliding with the Werder Breman forward, provoking a second yellow card.

"The annoying thing is even after the red card we had managed to hold them," said left-back Michal Zewlakow, whose nation now need Costa Rica to beat Ecuador on Thursday to keep alive their slim chances of going through to the knockout phase.

"We were just two minutes short of getting a point. Now our chances are marginal. The sending-off came at a moment when the players were very tired.

"You would expect the referee to be aware of that and it was clear Radoslaw tried to pull out. For sure if the referee had only given a foul, he wouldn't have done anything wrong.

"But of course we were playing with the Germans, the hosts, at a crucial moment in a tight game. That's how it goes."

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by SpencerH

I think its possible that Klose was trying to draw a foul from Sobolewski (who seems to have a reputation as a "hard tackler"). In my mind nothing else explains the sudden shift in direction when Klose received the pass. He virtually ran straight at Sobolewski who was at least 5 m toward center than Klose, behind the ball, and not moving very fast. Sobolewski, being an idiot, took the bait and stepped into Klose from the side and behind whereupon Klose promptly fell to the ground ('with much wailing and gnashing of teeth').

In my mind, its exactly the kind of calculated move that demeans great teams such as Germany.

Or perhaps it's the kind of calculated move that defines a clever player, and a winner? How many times do we hear commenators complementing a player for 'drawing a foul'?

[reds4ever]

I just hope we arn't (and I fear we may be) getting towards a situation where a defender is "guilty until proven innocent" when an opponent goes down in the box under pressure.

[alva]

Ronaldo has been taken to hospital btw.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by alva
Ronaldo has been taken to hospital btw.

What, for a quick liposuction job?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by reds4ever
I just hope we arn't (and I fear we may be) getting towards a situation where a defender is "guilty until proven innocent" when an opponent goes down in the box under pressure.

Nah, we seen plenty of 'play on' gestures from the ref, and what - one penalty*?

* - even if that was the wrong decision (edit)