When is it ok to hate someone for their politics?

[Flip McWho]

Hmmm how do you define class Ned?

A class in economics is generally an income range bracket.

These do exist, they usually get taxed at the same level, unless the country employs a flat tax rate.

Economic freedom is not synonmous with social freedom and neither are they both synonmous with political freedom.

Attacking economic freedom is not incompatible with social/political freedom.

[Lancer]

Is this thread a situation where it's ok to hate someone for their politics?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Hmmm how do you define class Ned?

A class in economics is generally an income range bracket.

These do exist, they usually get taxed at the same level, unless the country employs a flat tax rate.

Economic freedom is not synonmous with social freedom and neither are they both synonmous with political freedom.

Attacking economic freedom is not incompatible with social/political freedom.

A class is not merely one's present state of income or wealth. It is one's permanent, legal status that one cannot cross because of legal stratification of society. Thus, a worker cannot become a merchant who in turn cannot become a baron -- at least on their own initiative.

As to the idiotic definition of capitalism provided by Odin, corporations are owned by the people. Virtually every citizen in the US is an owner of stock either directly or indirectly through his or her pension plan. Jobs in corporations are open to all. Anyone can apply and get a job. Management goes to those with the most skills, not to some barron with a title.

The bottom line, there is no corporate class. That utterance is more than nonsense. It is unbridled ignorance and pure propaganda.

[Arrian]

That's the theory, Ned. In reality, however, things are not so rosy. We are in real danger of creating an aristocracy of sorts here in America (to the extent there isn't one already). The abolishment of the inheritance tax (sometimes amusingly called the death tax) would be a giant step in that direction. And that's just what your precious Republicans want to do.

I'm no socialist. But I do think that we should aim for a system that provides a fair start to all - equality of opportunity, not of outcome. The current trend is in the opposite direction.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

[q=Ned]A class is not merely one's present state of income or wealth. It is one's permanent, legal status that one cannot cross because of legal stratification of society. Thus, a worker cannot become a merchant who in turn cannot become a baron -- at least on their own initiative. [/q]

Then no one on this site is engaged in class warfare. You can set up your strawmen and knock them down, but even the biggest of commies on this site don't consider 'class' to be a permanant legal status, however they may acknowledge the difficulties in rising from one class to another.

[Arrian]

What Ned describes as class sounds to me like CASTE.

-Arrian

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[q=Ned]A class is not merely one's present state of income or wealth. It is one's permanent, legal status that one cannot cross because of legal stratification of society. Thus, a worker cannot become a merchant who in turn cannot become a baron -- at least on their own initiative. [/q]

Then no one on this site is engaged in class warfare. You can set up your strawmen and knock them down, but even the biggest of commies on this site consider 'class' to be a permanant legal status, however they may acknowledge the difficulties in rising from one class to another.

:Confused:

I beleive youmeant to say even the biggest commies on this site do NOT consider 'class' to be a permenent legal status.

Regardless the point does stand that the arguements that happen on this baord usually are of the type that says that economic mobility is unsurpassed in free market economies whilst commies generally poo poo these claims or claim otherwise.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian
That's the theory, Ned. In reality, however, things are not so rosy. We are in real danger of creating an aristocracy of sorts here in America (to the extent there isn't one already). The abolishment of the inheritance tax (sometimes amusingly called the death tax) would be a giant step in that direction. And that's just what your precious Republicans want to do.

I'm no socialist. But I do think that we should aim for a system that provides a fair start to all - equality of opportunity, not of outcome. The current trend is in the opposite direction.

-Arrian

More wealth is evil thinking. Punishment of the wealthy does not help the poor. It hurts them because it retards the creation of wealth in the first place. Wealth brings prosperity to all.

The focus ought to remain on equal opportunity. Today's greatest barrier to equal opportunity is not the presence or absence of high taxes on the wealthy, but the bad public education system. The only way to truly remedy this is to provide some sort of voucher system so that the poor are not locked into bad education.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

All the vouchers in the world aren't going to help if education is not truly valued and seen as the gateway to success it truly is. This phenomena is growing in all parts of our society.

Leading a horse to water and making him drink are two different things.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
:Confused:

I beleive youmeant to say even the biggest commies on this site do NOT consider 'class' to be a permenent legal status.

Regardless the point does stand that the arguements that happen on this baord usually are of the type that says that economic mobility is unsurpassed in free market economies whilst commies generally poo poo these claims or claim otherwise.

I believe you meant . Thanks though, I've changed it.

And I don't think any one claims that economic mobility is not great in capitalist economies, but that a) it isn't as great as the promoters of capitalism claim it is, and b) social mobility would be better in a more socialist system.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian
What Ned describes as class sounds to me like CASTE.

-Arrian

The class warfare thinking came at a time when almost all of the world was still stratified legally. Feudalism still existed in large measure.

Class warfare thinking presupposes stratification. Workers cannot become merchants, merchants cannot not become barons, etc.

In free societies, though, a millionaire can go bankrupt and the poor can become mega rich. It happens every day.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

And I don't think any one claims that economic mobility is not great in capitalist economies, but that a) it isn't as great as the promoters of capitalism claim it is, and b) social mobility would be better in a more socialist system.

And my takes on a) is maybe


and b) you gotta be kidding me.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
All the vouchers in the world aren't going to help if education is not truly valued and seen as the gateway to success it truly is. This phenomena is growing in all parts of our society.

Leading a horse to water and making him drink are two different things.

There are guys like Bill Cosby who are bucking this trend.

But you do have a point. People may be dismayed at the bad state of public education and react to it by refusing to cooperate with it.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


I believe you meant . Thanks though, I've changed it.

And I don't think any one claims that economic mobility is not great in capitalist economies, but that a) it isn't as great as the promoters of capitalism claim it is, and b) social mobility would be better in a more socialist system.

Imran, I can hardly believe that you believe this?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ned
Imran, I can hardly believe that you believe this?

What, that a concept of class exists? Of course it does. We speak of the 'middle class' all the time. There are lower classes. It is very difficult for people from the lower classes to move into the upper classes than it is for people born into the upper classes to stay there.