I apologize to you on behalf of 'Muslims'

[Zkribbler]

No. You cannot legislate that people act responsiblty.
You can only wish that they would.

[Az]

Thing is, it's not "acting responsibly" it's"being chicken**** and not standing up for the truth". Again, a reiteration - it was a part of a debate on self-censorship when dealing with Islam. they thought had a problem, as a part of the article, the published these cartoons, and guess what, they were right, they had a problem. It was pretty much ****ing spot on.

[Zkribbler]

Yes. To Muslim's depiciting Mohammed is blasphamy. I can see why they's have a problem with it.

Next you'll say that they grossly over reacted--and you'll be right! But that doesn't make the person right who published the cartoon to see if he could enrage other people.

[Winston]

Yes, good article, Sirotnikov! That needed saying. Do you have a source link for it?

---

I can assure you Zkribbler, that this particular cartoonist, Kurt Westergaard, was not out to "see if he could enrage other people". I've known and appreciated his drawings for decades, and as I've stated earlier, this one with the guy having a bomb for a turban, was first published in Jyllands-Posten prior to the special "The face of Muhammed" (the 12 cartoons, which is the centre of this controversy) in another context, and re-used for the special, as was another of the 12, since both of these cartoonists are part of the editorial cartoonist group with Jyllands-Posten.

Satire, such as this, is about commenting on things, not about pissing people off. That's part of our culture too, here in Denmark.

Stop listening to the talking heads who claim that this was done for the purpose of insulting or enraging Muslims. It was not.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az

True, but quite a few of us expect (or at least used to expect) the moderate Muslims to show that they aren't on the same side as the extremists.

?

All of this is like bizzaro world for me.

For me too

However, it seems that several people here would welcome a clear rejection of the extremistic reactions by the moderate Muslims.

Originally posted by Footie Mad
We can't let fundamentalists dictate our society from afar, I expect representatives of muslims within our countries to take a stance against all violent actions caused by this.

(link)

Originally posted by Donegeal
[About the Indonesian Foreign Ministry spokesman who said it was the matter involves all of the Islamic world, and by extension for Donegeal, that all Muslims felt that way]
Where I feel it is probably true (or close to being true), I have no way of proving it.

(link)

Originally posted by lightblue
I've had it with this whole Islamic rubbish tbh. Basically shortly and sweetly put, they need to grow the **** up. They're acting like petulant little teenagers. Maybe its time to expel all known radical muslims from Western countries and bar any immigration from countries that have protested our freedom of speech in the last few days. Follow this up with economic sanctions and freezing of assets.

(link)

Originally posted by Odin
They're BURNING embassies now? The muslim world can go f*ck itself all I care. If they want a war of civilizations they can go right ahead, they can do thier Hajj to radioactive ruins.

(link)

Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
Pretty amazing though they go this far over such a small thing.
I'm increasingly getting the impression that the muslim community is some kind of dysfunctional Borg collective.

(link)

[Az]

Originally posted by Spiffor

For me too

However, it seems that several people here would welcome a clear rejection of the extremistic reactions by the moderate Muslims.


(link)
Not by each and every member of community, but by the leaders/reps of the community. which is right.


(link)
ditto

(link)
His personal feeling on muslims as a group. yes, but borderline.

(link)
oh, perfectly right, and perfectly correct. I don't see what your problem is with this post. It is about the muslim world and society - and it's an established fact that disdain and even violent hatred to these comics is norm. It's not a generalization, but a view on the society. A view that I share.

(link)
again, perfectly right and perfectly correct. Notice the giant IF, you know.

(link)

yes, what's your point. notice community, hive, etc.

If you want to brand these people bigots, you're welcome to your own opinion. It's complete fallacy, though, because these people don't and won't approach actual individuals with any stigma as with regards to their upbringing - the true tell tale sign of a bigot.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
If you want to brand these people bigots, you're welcome to your own opinion. It's complete fallacy, though, because these people don't and won't approach actual individuals with any stigma as with regards to their upbringing - the true tell tale sign of a bigot.

I'm not branding these people as bigots. This discussion was initiated by Zevico's post, to which I reacted:

Originally posted by Zevico
I mean no one should apologise on the behalf of 'Muslims'. The 'Muslims' are not some homogenous group that are collectively responsible for every act committed by any Muslim person anywhere.

I said that quite a few 'polytubbies would need to see by their own eyes that the Muslims are divided about the whole issue. You called me on that, telling me that "it's quite clear". My post was a way to show that it's not so clear for everybody here.

I've purposefully quoted only people who have no history of bigotry. And I certainly don't intend to call them bigots. Their reaction is nothing terrible. However, it does require that somebody takes a stance, and clearly shows that Muslims can be against assholishness just the same. It is good that we have such a person here now.

[Az]

I didn't agree that they were "divided". Division conjures the image of similarly sized groups. I don't think this is the case. It doesn't change the fact that I don't think that all people of muslim origin think that this is something earthshakingly bad - i.e. I do think that there is a clear majority of muslims that think that this "OMG TERRIBLE THEY DREW THE BIG PBUH" - doesn't mean that we should approach all muslims with the clear thought that they are oversensitive, to put it mildly.


In other news, check out this guy's "peace plea": you better not publish that cartoon, or bad things are going to happen.

Sheik's peace plea on cartoon

06feb06

A SENIOR Islamic cleric has called on Australia's media not to publish the cartoons that have sparked riots across the Muslim world.





Sheik Fehmi El-Imam, the general secretary of the Board of Imams of Victoria, warned reprinting the cartoons here could "disturb people who can do things that we don't want them to do".

"In some parts of the world there is rioting against the Danish and the Dutch," the sheik said yesterday.

"'We don't want that in Australia. Unfortunately, New Zealand has (published the cartoons) . . . I'm trying to avoid, to put far away, any possibility of disturbing the peace in Australia."

The hand-drawn caricatures of the prophet Mohammed, first published in a Danish paper, hit a nerve in the Islamic world.

They have since been republished by newspapers across Europe and New Zealand, in a move defended by media companies as making a stand for free speech.

Sheik El-Imam said his call to Australia's media not to follow those companies was an "advisory gesture" in the hope the nation's "atmosphere of peace" would not be broken.

The sheik, considered a moderate voice among Australia's Muslim clerics, is based at the Preston Mosque.

The cartoons have been interpreted as blasphemous because Islamic law forbids any depiction of the prophet Mohammed, favourable or otherwise. "

Nice peace plea.

[Elok]

I know I said I was ditching this argument, but I just noticed this:

Mission riots

The clerics actually waded into the mob to try to stop them. At least some of the clergy are actually trying for peace.

EDIT: long URL. Hope the link works now.

Second Edit: Nope. Well, it's on Yahoo news, CNN doesn't seem to be covering it yet...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
"OMG TERRIBLE THEY DREW THE BIG PBUH"

Oooh, that's where the expression "the great poobah" comes from!
[sorry, but you know how pleasant it is when one finally has a surge of understanding - what was the word for that again?)

doesn't mean that we should approach all muslims with the clear thought that they are oversensitive, to put it mildly.

Yes. I disagree with them being outraged by the fact their prophet was drawn in the western press, but I have no problem with it as long as they voice it in a civilized fashion. This is what happened everywhere within Europe so far. Similarly, I haven't heard of violent protests over the issue in North Africa, in Muslim subsaharian Africa (though I wouldn't put it past the Nigerian Muslims), in Iran. As to Indonesia, the protest in front on the embassy, despite lookinng barbaric at first, actually took place in a civilized manner.

In short, the eye of the ****storm is the Middle East. Unsurprisingly. Fortunately, not all Muslims are like the extremists in your neck on the wood


In other news, check out this guy's "peace plea": you better not publish that cartoon, or bad things are going to happen.


[q] Sheik's peace plea on cartoon

06feb06

A SENIOR Islamic cleric has called on Australia's media not to publish the cartoons that have sparked riots across the Muslim world.

As to the guy's "peace plea", while I wouldn't heed to it, it doesn't necessarily mean that the guy has ill intentions. He might be an actual moderate (i.e. "I don't like these pics and I'll condemn them, but I won't call for violence against them") who warns that there are extremistic Muslims in Australia, out of his control, who could raise hell.
That's a possible scenario, and if the guy is an actual moderate, I think it's more likely than the scenario depicting him doing blackmail ("If you publish these pics, I'll raise hell").

[Az]

Oooh, that's where the expression "the great poobah" comes from!
[sorry, but you know how pleasant it is when one finally has a surge of understanding - what was the word for that again?)

epiphany?

Yes. I disagree with them being outraged by the fact their prophet was drawn in the western press, but I have no problem with it as long as they voice it in a civilized fashion.

oh, I do have a problem with that, but it's their right. Why do I think they have a problem? I'll explain: don't you think most chrstian people ( defined as people who believe in god, and come from a christian background ) would laugh it off?

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=429

But no, most muslim people will be outraged. civilized or not is 2nd question, a more important one, but of a similarly fundamental nature.

WRT the guy from Australia, I didn't say whether he was a moderate, or not. He probably is. It's not the point - the point is that he merely reiterates rules that are apparently accepted in australia - that you cannot say a boo boo about islam, or you'll have fights. So please don't do it. Basically, don't do it. ever.

[VetLegion]

Some Muslim guy mentioned on another forum: since Abraham and Jesus are also holy people in Islam, why don't these protestors get upset every time they are cartooned? Good point.

Spiffor: the word is heureka I think.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Oooh, that's where the expression "the great poobah" comes from!
[sorry, but you know how pleasant it is when one finally has a surge of understanding - what was the word for that again?)

Hehe. No. 'The Grand Poobah' comes via the Flintstones from Gilbert and Sullivan

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
oh, I do have a problem with that, but it's their right. Why do I think they have a problem? I'll explain: don't you think most chrstian people ( defined as people who believe in god, and come from a christian background ) would laugh it off?

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=429

But no, most muslim people will be outraged. civilized or not is 2nd question, a more important one, but of a similarly fundamental nature.

Well, from my French perspective, most Christians are actually atheists with a baptism However, when I think of any serious, or even semi-serious believer that I know of, I'm sure they'd be at least very unsettled by the T-shirt, and most of them would be quite unhappy with it. And I bet the priests would be outraged, what with it being their job

Now, the Muslims don't have nearly the same experience with secularism as the French catholics. Very few French Muslims aren't from immigrant origins, and the people from immigrant origins have had big trouble integrating in the French society, as we discussed at length during the riots. As a result, their culture is fairly often a hodgepodge of fantasized values of the country of origin, with some western values. (As for converts, they always are the worst anyways). If France manages to successfully integrate the next generation of children born of Muslim parents, I think the reactions in that Muslim community would be different.

I have just browsed Oumma.com, the leading francophone website on Islam. There are quite a few op-eds about the charicatures, and I'm pretty happy with what I see. The writers of these articles have a very French perspective on the matter: yes there is a right to blasphemy, even if they aren't happy with it. Yes, there are laws against call for hatred, and one of the pics could fall under this law. Yes, the ****storm comes from reactionary countries that torture and that have no freedom.

OTOH, there's pretty much nothing positive to expect from the reactionary countries, which have everything to gain by manipulating the feeling of frustration and humiliation their population feel toward the west.

[Odin]

This guy posted the EXACT same OP at CFC.