I apologize to you on behalf of 'Muslims'

[loinburger]

I'd like to apologize on behalf of all Scientologists. Honest, we don't sacrifice that many newborns... And Satan's a swell guy once you get to know him.

[Winston]

moustafa,

I understand your sentiments, and appreciate your decision to make them known here.

What I don't understand is why Muslims who share your concerns and shame over these incidents apparently do nothing, or very little, to influence their fellow countrymen into exercising restraint (restraint being the very least we could ask for at this time).

[MOBIUS]

DL!DL!DL!DL!DL!DL!DL!DL!DL!

[Chemical Ollie]

Just bend over and face it. (Mecca, that is)

As long as your religion stays at that, we all respect it.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Winston
moustafa,

I understand your sentiments, and appreciate your decision to make them known here.

What I don't understand is why Muslims who share your concerns and shame over these incidents apparently do nothing, or very little, to influence their fellow countrymen into exercising restraint (restraint being the very least we could ask for at this time).

I would add that the same restraint should be requested from those who stand fanatically by the principles of free speech.

[Az]

You have nothing to ashamed of. You had no hand in this.

(in the case you're not a DL)

polarnomad - there is no parallel. Free speech, and the ability to criticize, or even mock religion, ANY religion, is something all people in the world should have.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Az

polarnomad - there is no parallel. Free speech, and the ability to criticize, or even mock religion, ANY religion, is something all people in the world should have.

I understand the principle, but it isn't worth provoking cultures that do not include this principle in their way of life. Western civilization gains nothing from this showdown. In fact, we have much to lose.

[Pekka]

Who is provoking who? It was a CARTOON FOR JEBUS SAKE!
IF you want to be oversensitive towards anyone, the question is where do you draw the line? We can always find something offensive and insensitive, something people won't like and will speak against.

Are you willing to limit your rights because some folks are protesting in some other countries? Are you seriously saying this? You think it will end there, that OK we agree not to draw that dude, do you think that will be the last we hear about it? Hell no! That's like saying, well, I can't find a thing worth fighting for, if I get to live. Reverse it and it means, there's not a single thing I would be willing to die for.

And to that I say, why do you live in the first place? Life like that is not worth living IMO.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dude... he isn't saying that. Polarnomad is saying (if I understand him correctly) that everyone should have the right to insult whoever they wish, but sometimes we should have a bit more consideration for others and try not to deliberately provoke them.

Like, the same Danish paper should refrain from putting a cartoon with Jesus trying to have sex with underage boys. It is their right to do so, but the only effect would be to incite people.

I don't necessarily agree (I enjoy "South Park" after all), but I understand the point.

[Az]

I understand the principle, but it isn't worth provoking cultures that do not include this principle in their way of life. Western civilization gains nothing from this showdown. In fact, we have much to lose.

And we have much to gain. Like them seeing the error of their ways. And we being able to have an honest discussion about subjects.

But why am I bothering? Pekka right above me was so much more eloquent on the subject...

[polarnomad]

So how far are you willing to go Pekka?

I frankly couldn't care less whether some cartoonists feel they should have the right to insult millions of Muslims everywhere. Since when is instigating conflict a right?

It sounds to me that many want to have the right to do just about anything. Limits need to be drawn so that we may continue to live in peace with one another. Understanding one another's sensitivities and living with them is more important to me than some stupid point some newspapers feel the need to make. If people get hurt and die because of this they should hold their heads in shame.

[Asher]

mustafa??? is that you???

[Pekka]

Imran, I thought he was saying we should give up few things in the freedom of speech thing, to protect sensitive sides.

Sounded like an apologizer to me.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Az
And we have much to gain. Like them seeing the error of their ways. And we being able to have an honest discussion about subjects.

Have you ever made someone see the error of their ways by insulting them?

An honest discussion starts with an invitation to discuss, not flipping someone off.

[Az]

Dude... he isn't saying that. Polarnomad is saying (if I understand him correctly) that everyone should have the right to insult whoever they wish, but sometimes we should have a bit more consideration for others and try not to deliberately provoke them.

It wasn't a deliberate provocation - it was a series of cartoons that were precisely on the topic of self-censorship by cartoonist when discussing islam - i.e. a lack of an honest debate on the issue. It was published with that specific intent. If that's a provocation, EVERYTHING is a provocation.

I frankly couldn't care less whether some cartoonists feel they should have the right to insult millions of Muslims everywhere. Since when is instigating conflict a right?

This is ****ing ridiculous. Compare this: were the first female suffragists instigating conflict, when wanting to have rights, against a patriarchal, and sometimes, quite militant public? of course not.