Abortion!

[Arrian]

Pick on that one word all you want, but there is some pretty good stuff in the rest of his post.

Anyway, again, hows about going after the root problem, eh? And let's try all angles, including urging abstinence, but also the other stuff the church doesn't like (explaining sex and teaching kids about birth control/protection, and making those things generally available). Telling kids that they shouldn've have sex and leaving it at that DOES NOT WORK, HAS NEVER WORKED, AND WILL NEVER WORK. It will result in a lot of unwanted pregnancies, as well as the spread of STDs. It's ****ing stupid.

Approaching the root cause properly will reduce the number of abortions, which I think we can all agree would be good. The debate about abortion can rage on and on (and oh, it will), but the problem will be reduced in scale even if we have no resolution of that debate (we won't, folks).

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

and hopefully not frazzle Ben's brain): one member of a couple is permanently infertile. Is it wrong for them to have sex in the first place knowing full well that they will never have a baby, and if it's okay, is it wrong for them to use condoms (Let's say the woman wants it that way because it's cleaner)?

That point is one of the reasons I said what I did earlier, with respect to the difference between natural causes, and unnatural ones. Had to keep this example in mind.

Someone who is infertile through no fault of her own does not sin in having sex with her husband. She has not chosen to avoid having children, she could very well want children, and her body would not permit her to have them.

As for the use of condoms, I've never heard that preference that the ladies would rather you wear one because it's cleaner.

Are there really ladies who like to have sex but don't like the fact that it's messy?

[Ben Kenobi]

I think that's an unfair way of looking at it. Christians love most women that make the right choices, and whore-ry (Unwanted pregnancy only happens to sluts, as we all know, which is why when many right-wingers' daughters have unwanted pregnancy they'll either very quietly get them abortions or kick them out rather than "face the consequences") is the real enemy.

Which is why I suppose we are taught that all have sinned and fallen short of the law.

I'm not sure if you have met any Christians, but if you truly believe that they only love women who make the right choices, then many of these Christian ladies would have to hate themselves. Folks do repent of their earlier lives and try to live better ones, you know. We aren't all brought up in the church.

[Ben Kenobi]

Abstinence is not an action. It is a lack of action. Eating is an action. Fasting is a lack of action.

Ever try fasting UR?

[Ben Kenobi]

The rhythm method should work perfectly, barring abnormalities/bad timing. (The latter is far, far more frequent.)

The problem are the assumptions that they make about a woman's cycle. Any irregularity will throw off all the calculations.

[Ben Kenobi]

One thing we need to remember. These people aren't simply trying to verturn Roe v. Wade. They're after Griwald v. Connecticutt as well. (That's the case where SCOTUS said we had a right to birth control.)

"These people?"

I suppose I fall into the category of these people, eh? Che, suppose someone believes that abortion is murder because it kills an unborn child. Why does it necessarily follow that they would also want to prevent women from having access to contraception?

Secondly, you also have to remember that if you believe that an unborn child is a person from conception onwards, many of these so-called 'contraceptives' really do not prevent conception. They are abortifacients. To be consistant you would have to ban abortifacients along with induced abortion.

However, things like condoms, and such are really a separate issue from abortion, and there is no cause for someone who wants to ban Roe v Wade to overturn Griswald v Connecticut.

[Japher]

Anyway, again, hows about going after the root problem, eh? And let's try all angles, including urging abstinence, but also the other stuff the church doesn't like (explaining sex and teaching kids about birth control/protection, and making those things generally available). Telling kids that they shouldn've have sex and leaving it at that DOES NOT WORK, HAS NEVER WORKED, AND WILL NEVER WORK. It will result in a lot of unwanted pregnancies, as well as the spread of STDs. It's ****ing stupid.

I agree Treat the disease and not the symptom

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As for the use of condoms, I've never heard that preference that the ladies would rather you wear one because it's cleaner.

Are there really ladies who like to have sex but don't like the fact that it's messy?

Are you capable of answering a hypothetical question without asking another question? Do I need to give the two non-existent people in question names and describe their lives and sexual preferences in explicit detail before you will give a simple answer? There could be any number of situations where a woman might want to have sex with her husband but not want to get messy. They might be about to go out, or hell, she might even have an allergic reaction to sperm. Despite the fact you cannot personally conceive of a situation where a woman might not want semen inside her, it does not mean such a situation does not exist. Now either say you can't answer the question, or answer it, if only to shut me up.

[Japher]

Are you capable of answering a hypothetical question without asking another question?

Can you?

!!!

Can I?

OMG!

[Gibsie]

That would be funny if I hadn't included the word "hypothetical" in there! Yes I thought for a few seconds to avoid the old answering a questioned question with a question quandry...

[Arrian]

"These people?"

I suppose I fall into the category of these people, eh? Che, suppose someone believes that abortion is murder because it kills an unborn child. Why does it necessarily follow that they would also want to prevent women from having access to contraception?

It does not necessarily follow. However, the most dedicated opponents of abortion are religious zealots, and religious zealots also tend to oppose contraception. "These people" (I think... I'm not Che) would be those who seek to ram their religious beliefs down the throats of others. The dedicated opponents of Roe are, in large part, religious zealots. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that many of them would also support banning contraception too (they would clearly lose that one, badly, though).

You appear to fall into that category. You oppose abortion, quite passionately it appears. You also appear (though you've been pulling a bit of a Dinodoc in this thread) to oppose contraception, and I still don't know if you agree with rhythm/Billings method... not that I agree there is any real difference.

-Arrian

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Are there really ladies who like to have sex but don't like the fact that it's messy?

Yes - especially when the room is cold they don't want to get out from under the covers and run to the bathroom afterwards.

[Ben Kenobi]

It does not necessarily follow. However, the most dedicated opponents of abortion are religious zealots, and religious zealots also tend to oppose contraception. "These people" (I think... I'm not Che) would be those who seek to ram their religious beliefs down the throats of others. The dedicated opponents of Roe are, in large part, religious zealots. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that many of them would also support banning contraception too (they would clearly lose that one, badly, though).

You appear to fall into that category. You oppose abortion, quite passionately it appears. You also appear (though you've been pulling a bit of a Dinodoc in this thread) to oppose contraception, and I still don't know if you agree with rhythm/Billings method... not that I agree there is any real difference.

Let me be quite clear here. I would support overturning Roe because I believe that abortion kills an unborn child. I believe that the state has the responsibility to protect innocent human life from conception onwards, hence my point clarifying abortifacients such as the pill, would also fall under the ban. They would be banned not for being contraceptives, but because they kill embryos after they have been conceived.

You are also right, that I oppose contraception. Do I believe that all contraceptives should be banned? No. Even though I disagree with contraception, there is no compelling responsibility for the state to ban contraception, as the state has to protect innocent life.

As for the Billings method, I agree that it should be an option for folks, even though I do not think I would choose that option for myself.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes - especially when the room is cold they don't want to get out from under the covers and run to the bathroom afterwards.

Thank you for answering the question. I'm not sure I understand the rationale for why one would want to go through all that bother with the condom when you already know that you cannot have children.

It seems rather odd to me that after having sex, you would feel that you have to wash up afterwards. That would seem to me that you are saying that sex is in fact messy and icky rather then something to enjoy.

[Ben Kenobi]

There could be any number of situations where a woman might want to have sex with her husband but not want to get messy. They might be about to go out, or hell, she might even have an allergic reaction to sperm.

And the solution to the situation of wanting a quickie before going out is to use a condom? Surely there are other options.

Despite the fact you cannot personally conceive of a situation where a woman might not want semen inside her, it does not mean such a situation does not exist. Now either say you can't answer the question, or answer it, if only to shut me up

You have your answer already. If I could say that it was always wrong in this situation, why would I ask for the rationale behind the motivation?

Things like allergies, or other health reasons are understandable, but I'm not sure the best solution for these problems is to use the condom when having sex.

These other ones just sound like excuses to me.