Abortion!

[Arrian]

I defend natural family planning because the church says this is ok.

Think about that some more, Ben. Think hard.

The thing that puzzles me most is the boredom aspect. How could someone get bored with sex?

I don't know!

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Oh, and to be fair:

I understand your point about divorce. It does scar people. My wife's parents got divorced (rather amicably, especially considering there was cheating involved!) and she definitely had (for a while) major problems with thinking people would bail on her. Friends... me...

So yeah, divorce can scar you. I was simply pointing out that there can be other reasons not to get married. I, who grew up in a very good, stable home (both my parents have gone through divorces, but their marriage has been 30+ years of impressive harmony), pondered the idea of not getting married... instead getting some sort of civil union just for legal reasons. In the end, I went with tradition. But I pondered it.

Edit: well, actually, if you think about it all we did was get a civil union. No church, no minister/priest... no sacrement of marriage. What's left? The State. The State calls it marriage, but comeon.

The friend I used in my example: parents divorced. So it's certainly possible that plays into it.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

If you are using the billings method to actively avoid getting pregnant, you are also saying that you care about the outcome and that you are not open to having a child. The only way your position would make sense is if you didn't actively monitor cycles, had sex whenever you wanted and were totally fine with the possibility of pregnancy.

Billings is a tool. It gives you information about the cycles. You can use it to get pregnant by making sure you have sex during the most fertile periods, or avoiding pregnancy by abstaining during these periods.

You use the word 'actively' avoiding getting pregnant, when the only action that is preventing pregnancy in this case is abstinence. The couple chooses not to have sex with each other for a short period.

Now, suppose I were to say this was wrong? This was my approach in my very first post. I argued the opposite in order to show why it was not wrong to avoid pregnancy through abstaining.

I know many folks believe that it is only the ends that matter, that the ends justify the means, but there are other folks who do believe that the means are also important. How you accomplish something makes a big difference.

[Arrian]

Oh, ffs!

There is no difference between using timing (Billings) and a condom... other than I suspect the condom is more effective and Billings feels better (when you're allowed to have sex, of course)

You're splitting hairs to justify an absurd belief (which it appears you may not even hold... in favor of an even MORE absurd belief!).

As always, go ahead, but please consider (politically) leaving the rest of society alone!

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

Think about that some more, Ben. Think hard.

I have. The choices that one would make for oneself does not necessarily mean that all the other choices are wrong. Natural Family Planning is one of those things. Folks are free to make use of it if they wish.

I understand your point about divorce. It does scar people. My wife's parents got divorced (rather amicably, especially considering there was cheating involved!) and she definitely had (for a while) major problems with thinking people would bail on her. Friends... me...

I've been fortunate. My folks are still married to each other. I've just had the chance to see how it affects others and that's one thing that really surprised me just how huge of an effect it has.

So yeah, divorce can scar you. I was simply pointing out that there can be other reasons not to get married. I, who grew up in a very good, stable home (both my parents have gone through divorces, but their marriage has been 30+ years of impressive harmony), pondered the idea of not getting married... instead getting some sort of civil union just for legal reasons. In the end, I went with tradition. But I pondered it.

The thing about divorce is that if it affects one partner it affects both of them. Your wife went through all this, so you had to deal with her trust issues before you could even think about getting married.

The friend I used in my example: parents divorced. So it's certainly possible that plays into it.

Not surprised. I hope they are happy together, and that your friend will be able to work out her troubles.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't get it, Ben. Enlighten me.

You're welcome Arrian.

[Arrian]

so you had to deal with her trust issues before you could even think about getting married.

TO HER.

And no, her parents' divorce really didn't effect me. Her issues as a result forced me to reassure her, but they had no effect on whether we chose to call our union "marriage" or something else.

Not surprised. I hope they are happy together, and that your friend will be able to work out her troubles.

Her troubles? What troubles would those be? She doesn't want to be married, so she's broken, Ben? Look, I conceded that divorce can effect people. That doesn't mean that it is the reason my friend Jill isn't getting married. You don't know her. I don't know her well enough to analyze it.

You're welcome Arrian.

-Arrian

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You use the word 'actively' avoiding getting pregnant, when the only action that is preventing pregnancy in this case is abstinence. The couple chooses not to have sex with each other for a short period.

Um, no. The action that is preventing pregnancy is having sex during a known non-fertile time, which you said was fine.

Now, suppose I were to say this was wrong? This was my approach in my very first post. I argued the opposite in order to show why it was not wrong to avoid pregnancy through abstaining.

Who the hell would suggest that it's wrong to avoid pregnancy through abstinence? You just spent the last while justifying why it's OK to have sex when you know that there is almost no chance of becoming pregnant.

I know many folks believe that it is only the ends that matter, that the ends justify the means, but there are other folks who do believe that the means are also important. How you accomplish something makes a big difference.

I would think intent plays a role somewhere in there as well. And if you have sex during a time you know a woman is infertile, your intent is the same as if you wear a condom - sex without the consequences of pregnancy.

[Ben Kenobi]

The action that is preventing pregnancy is having sex during a known non-fertile time, which you said was fine.

How is having sex during a non-fertile time the action that prevents pregnancy?

The sex isn't preventing pregnancy, rather the woman's body is the thing preventing pregnancy. And that isn't an action of the woman, it's her cycle to which she does not have control.

Who the hell would suggest that it's wrong to avoid pregnancy through abstinence? You just spent the last while justifying why it's OK to have sex when you know that there is almost no chance of becoming pregnant.

And that's my point. If it is okay to abstain from sex during your fertile period, why would it be wrong to have sex during the infertile period?

And if you have sex during a time you know a woman is infertile, your intent is the same as if you wear a condom - sex without the consequences of pregnancy.

Not necessarily. Someone who is trying to conceive will find herself in the same position, having sex with someone while she is infertile. This is not something you see with a condom.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


How is having sex during a non-fertile time the action that prevents pregnancy?


The sex isn't preventing pregnancy, rather the woman's body is the thing preventing pregnancy. And that isn't an action of the woman, it's her cycle to which she does not have control.

Having sex during a time in which you know the woman is infertile is a method of birth control - the whole point of this discussion. So while the woman doesn't have control over her cycle, if she's actively monitoring it, she has control over when she has sex with the the goal of conceiving or not. Or have you forgotten your position of self control and abstinence already?

And that's my point. If it is okay to abstain from sex during your fertile period, why would it be wrong to have sex during the infertile period?

This doesn't even make sense. No surprise, really.

Not necessarily. Someone who is trying to conceive will find herself in the same position, having sex with someone while she is infertile. This is not something you see with a condom.

This isn't that hard Ben - INTENT. Your position (and presumably the Church's) is that the procreative and pleasurable aspect of sex are intertwined. So while you indeed may not get pregnant each time you have sex for any number of reasons, if you INTENTIONALLY have sex when you KNOW the woman is infertile, you are having sex purely for pleasure. Which is exactly the same intent as when you use a condom. Now, if you weren't monitoring the fertility cycle and had sex randomly, each time with the hope (but obviously no guarantee) of getting pregnant, it would be a bit different than INTENTIONALLY HAVING NON-REPRODUCTIVE SEX.

[Gibsie]

Okay, question to end discussion (and hopefully not frazzle Ben's brain): one member of a couple is permanently infertile. Is it wrong for them to have sex in the first place knowing full well that they will never have a baby, and if it's okay, is it wrong for them to use condoms (Let's say the woman wants it that way because it's cleaner)?

[chequita guevara]

It's very sad that no one seems to care that women are dying in the U.S. because of illegal abortions. Abortion is still legal, for the most part. If you're a teen or you're too poor to afford one, suck to be you. Too bad the Christians care more about an unthinking lump of protoplasm than a living, breathing, thinking, acting human being. Who cares, they're only women, right?

[Gibsie]

I think that's an unfair way of looking at it. Christians love most women that make the right choices, and whore-ry (Unwanted pregnancy only happens to sluts, as we all know, which is why when many right-wingers' daughters have unwanted pregnancy they'll either very quietly get them abortions or kick them out rather than "face the consequences") is the real enemy.

[Japher]

I'm really pissed that no one has told me how cute Josie is.

Come on guys!

Not that I've read anything since I posted her pic

but still! She's freakin' adorable!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
He quoted St. Basil the Great, a fourth century saint, as saying some people, ''fooled by the atheism that they carry inside of them, imagine a universe free of direction and order, as if at the mercy of chance.''

This is almost as good as the Flat Earthers

BTW, does the RCC have a split personality? Its position on evolution appears that way.

[/sidetrack]