Bias in Academia

[Cyclotron]

Don't you have fisticuffs to do?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Oerdin


The problem with Think Tanks is that they tend to spew ideology without having to go through the pesky details of peer review where they actually have to prove their ideological positions have some merit. Those you get far more partisan hackery out of the think tanks then you do out of acedemia.

Academia still spews out more partisan hackery than think tanks do despite peer review. For one thing there are a lot more people in academia than working in think tanks. For another, just how useful is peer review in the social "sciences" where one's peers are pretty damned likely to hold similar viewpoints and where science itself is a pretty weak force?

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Don't you have fisticuffs to do?

I say thee nay, I have already thoroughly fisted my opponents.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by loinburger

I say thee nay, I have already thoroughly fisted my opponents.

Or as it's known in French, Cressonage ...

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Cyclotron

Liberal colleges don't restrict the opinions on campus. Any bias is from the teachers themselves, which is incidental, not institutional. Founding a college specifically on purposes of ideology would make it institutional. Independent thought is lessened because the purpose of such a conservative school would be to pass on conservative values, which requires some degree of institutionalization of bias.

Incidental bias in an institution where there is such a disparity of numbers is institutional bias. Ask anyone in gender studies, race studies or sociology. Of course you might have to omit any reference to liberals or conservatives in order to get a consistent answer.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sikander
Incidental bias in an institution where there is such a disparity of numbers is institutional bias. Ask anyone in gender studies, race studies or sociology. Of course you might have to omit any reference to liberals or conservatives in order to get a consistent answer.

Negative. The fact that most teachers are liberal does not mean that most teachers express bias. It would be perfectly possible for a college full of Green Party members to have to institutional bias if they never brought up their political affiliation or taught in a manner that was essentially equal to both sides.

If the studies in this matter showed that bias was widespread, I would agree with you - but so far, all that has been demonstrated is that a certain political affiliation is widespread.

[Ben Kenobi]

The problem with Think Tanks is that they tend to spew ideology without having to go through the pesky details of peer review where they actually have to prove their ideological positions have some merit. Those you get far more partisan hackery out of the think tanks then you do out of acedemia.

Peer review proves the merit of the work? I guess if you are all in a circle jerk, it reinforces the quality of the argument. Peer review works so long as folks have differences in bias and opinions, and fails if everyone has the same motives. I have a textbook atm that I cannot believe got published, if your goal is to have less partisan hackery.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because the splitting of education would polarize it more.

And suppressing one point of few won't polarise folks? I think you will get less polarisation if both sides get what they are looking for.

certainly not me.

You talk about 'giving' them each their own education system. If you choose to fundraise and build your own schools, how is that in any way giving them an education system? All you are doing is permitting them to compete alongside the more established universities. Are you suggesting that the government should ban these private businesses from forming, or receiving accreditation?

I doubt that. Indoctrination, maybe; education is about broadening horizons, and I seriously doubt the ability of a school founded by idealogues to do that.

And schools today are not founded on the principle of indoctrination? I suppose it isn't indoctrination, unless you disagree with what is being taught.

Liberal colleges don't restrict the opinions on campus.

False. I have seen it myself, where campuses restrict and regulate opinions branded as conservative. They shuttle them off to one side of campus, or they ban them altogether. There are folks in the states called the centre for bioethical reform, that have been banned from numerous campuses across the US for nothing more then having an inconvenient opinion.

Any bias is from the teachers themselves, which is incidental, not institutional. Founding a college specifically on purposes of ideology would make it institutional. Independent thought is lessened because the purpose of such a conservative school would be to pass on conservative values, which requires some degree of institutionalization of bias.

And the public schools are not supposed to pass on liberal values? The bias is not so much from the individual teachers, but from the institution, and you see this in the courses they offer, and the opinions which they choose to marginalise.

A school can't "compete" in this regard without hiring people specifically for their ideological views, which is basically a sabotage of education. Professors should be hired because of their abilities and contributions to their field, not because they pass some litmus test for a conservative quota.

I think professors should be hired for their quality. Right now, there is a big gap between the quality of education folks want to see their kids receiving, and the quality that they receive. Therefore I think there is a market for schools that are more conservative. A conservative school isn't going to thrive if it hires nothing but poor teachers, but I think they can find plenty of quality educators, unless you believe sava's quote when he says the only good ones are all liberals.

At the expense of our democracy.

Competition in education is contrary to a democracy? I'm stunned.

[Ben Kenobi]

I just don't understand why he's arguing to counter a bias that may not even exist.

That's a good question. I read the study cited earlier in the thread, and all it said is that there are huge differences in the numbers of conservatives and liberal profs, which no one here disputes.

From my own experience, and the experiences of others it leads me to believe that there are large biases against conservatives, particularly in arts professions. That's why I've been arguing so stridently to counter this bias.

[Ben Kenobi]

molly:

Since you are so offended by my so-called sweeping generalities, remind me of which ones that I hold.

Have I said that I believe gay people are evil and that they are the spawn of satan? One would think that reading your robust reply.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
There are folks in the states called the centre for bioethical reform, that have been banned from numerous campuses across the US for nothing more then having an inconvenient opinion.

Are those the folks who wave around pictures of bloody fetuses?

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
And suppressing one point of few won't polarise folks? I think you will get less polarisation if both sides get what they are looking for.

No point of view is being suppressed. The fact that more professors are liberal does not equate to suppression; sounds like more conservative inferiority complex to me.

You talk about 'giving' them each their own education system. If you choose to fundraise and build your own schools, how is that in any way giving them an education system? All you are doing is permitting them to compete alongside the more established universities. Are you suggesting that the government should ban these private businesses from forming, or receiving accreditation?

My word choice was poor. Giving was the wrong word. As for conservatives building their own set of universities, I contend that it is not only a pipe dream, but - were it to succeedbroadly - would be essentially the death of American pluralism. I'm not suggesting any legislation, I just think it's a terrible idea.

And schools today are not founded on the principle of indoctrination? I suppose it isn't indoctrination, unless you disagree with what is being taught.

Most teachers I know try to teach, and not indoctrinate. I don't know about canadian schools. I know of no school, save maybe some obscure Christian schools, that consciously attempt to put a political view forward. Most attempt to be places of learning and free thinking. So in summary, yes, schools today are not founded on the principle of indoctrination.

False. I have seen it myself, where campuses restrict and regulate opinions branded as conservative. They shuttle them off to one side of campus, or they ban them altogether. There are folks in the states called the centre for bioethical reform, that have been banned from numerous campuses across the US for nothing more then having an inconvenient opinion.

Inferiority complex. The actions of certain individuals or school boards has not been suitably demonstrated to be associated with the greater number of liberal professors on campus. If anything, your experiences point to college administrators being limiting, not professors.

And if you really think professors are still the problem here, I already gave you your solution - raise more conservative youths to be interested in academics.

And the public schools are not supposed to pass on liberal values? The bias is not so much from the individual teachers, but from the institution, and you see this in the courses they offer, and the opinions which they choose to marginalise.

I disagree.

I think professors should be hired for their quality.

Nobody who wants to set up colleges focused on ideological purity can say this and not be a hypocrite.

Right now, there is a big gap between the quality of education folks want to see their kids receiving, and the quality that they receive. Therefore I think there is a market for schools that are more conservative. A conservative school isn't going to thrive if it hires nothing but poor teachers, but I think they can find plenty of quality educators, unless you believe sava's quote when he says the only good ones are all liberals.

Quality of education is not relevant to this discussion. Unless by quality, of course, you mean ideology. If I edit your quote:

Right now, there is a big gap between the ideology of education folks want to see their kids receiving, and the ideology that they receive. Therefore I think there is a market for schools that are more conservative.

Funny how that sounds exactly like your general point in this thread.

Competition in education is contrary to a democracy? I'm stunned.

Ideology in education is contrary to democracy. Don't be purposefully obtuse.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are those the folks who wave around pictures of bloody fetuses?

Yes they do. On campuses that are so stridently opposed to war that they bar recruiters.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yes they do. On campuses that are so stridently opposed to war that they bar recruiters.

Ben's been reading my thread! Super thread crossover!

[Ben Kenobi]

No point of view is being suppressed. The fact that more professors are liberal does not equate to suppression; sounds like more conservative inferiority complex to me.

Very true, I was referring specifically to the folks with CBR who have been restricted and barred from certain campuses, even as others have no problems hosting them.

would be essentially the death of American pluralism. I'm not suggesting any legislation, I just think it's a terrible idea.

If conservatives are dissatisfied with their educational options, then they are going to set up their own schools anyways. I think that if you are really concerned about the death of american pluralism, you should try to figure out how these conservatives can be better served by the current universities.

Most teachers I know try to teach, and not indoctrinate. I don't know about canadian schools. I know of no school, save maybe some obscure Christian schools, that consciously attempt to put a political view forward. Most attempt to be places of learning and free thinking. So in summary, yes, schools today are not founded on the principle of indoctrination.

That's not what I've seen. I've had some good profs who focus on the content, but I've also had profs who, in the first class, start off by saying that he is glad to teach in Canada because it is a liberal paradise. Needless to say, half his class walked out on him, (I stayed).

Inferiority complex. The actions of certain individuals or school boards has not been suitably demonstrated to be associated with the greater number of liberal professors on campus. If anything, your experiences point to college administrators being limiting, not professors.

I think the problems are more with the administrators then with individual professors, though there are certainly some professors I have had that have been absolutely horrible in their classes, with respect to bias. I had another philosophy prof who took pleasure in mocking prolifers throughout his class before I finally decided to spend a couple classes challenging his position.

Nobody who wants to set up colleges focused on ideological purity can say this and not be a hypocrite.

Where did I say I want a conservative litmus test? I want schools that fill the unfilled demand by parents and their kids who are disatisfied by the current regime. I want good professors to teach there, good being the operator moreso then conservative. For sure, I'd prefer a good conservative over a good liberal, but I'd take the good liberal before a poor conservative.

Funny how that sounds exactly like your general point in this thread.

No, I meant quality for a reason. I've been in school for awhile now, and I can't say that most courses offered by history departments are how shall we say, 'content driven'. It's the same complaint many other folks have had about the universities today.

In fact, here's an example, just from this college where I am at now. My psychology professor has been criticised within her department for being overly rigorous. She shocked me when she said that her textbook is written to a grade 10 level, in order to accomodate the students out of high school who do not read very well.

That's what I mean by declining quality of the current public university system.

Ideology in education is contrary to democracy. Don't be purposefully obtuse.

My mother is a college prof. We have plenty of discussions over differing, how shall we put it, 'educational philosophies'. She would ask the question of whether it is possible to extricate ideology from education, since the purpose of education is to teach.