So how did the destruction of New Orleans happen?

[Spiffor]

For me, the most interesting question in this whole debacle is: Why wasn't the evacuation complete? Why weren't the people forced to evacuate, and why wasn't transportation provided?

Why was there no serious evacuation plan in this city, despite the fact that it was considered as one of the US cities most likely to be hit by a catastrophe?

To say "It's Bush fault" doesn't cut it IMO. Even though Bush was ****ing pathetic in this debacle, he's not personally responsible for setting it up in the first place. All the things we're discussing now (lack of relief, lack of order, people dying by the thousands because they're stranded there) would be irrelevant if there had been actual caution before Katrina hit. If steps had been taken to effectively evacuate the city, we would be talking about financial damage today, not about thousands of deaths.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
For me, the most interesting question in this whole debacle is: Why wasn't the evacuation complete? Why weren't the people forced to evacuate, and why wasn't transportation provided?

There was buses to drive people to the superdome, so there was transportation available, though I don't know if it would have been able to drive all those people to another city.

Also, apparently, the NO plan, required 72 hours to implement, and IIUC, they only had about 48 hours warning.

To say "It's Bush fault" doesn't cut it IMO.

There's more than enough blame to go at all levels of government.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
I'm jumping in late, but just a couple of items.

First, levies. The damage was all on the Lake Ponchetrain side. It had nothing to do with the Mississippi River. While the storm surge itself did not strike the levies, it did fill Lake Ponchetrain with water, which topped the levies, eroding supports on the other side, and causing them to collapse.

Second, Corps of Engineers. The problem IS NOT that they don't have enough money. The problem IS that they don't spend it appropriately.
From a STATEMENT before the Environmental and Public Works Subcommittee of the US Senate, June 18, 2002:
Several pages of examples follow this quote.

SIMILARLY from just last year:


edit: formatting

The first one is from an individual environmental group's submission to the Senate committee. There may be a lot of truth to what they're saying, which is basically that the ACE does a lot of environmental damage with some of their projects, but that doesn't mean that Bush's cuts and the administration's misdirection aren't very much to blame here. The second link is to a taxpayer's group, which, if they're anything like the ones up here, don't really believe in government spending on anything at all.

Keep in mind that Bush is responsible for the overall direction of the US government. If he responded to these criticisms of the ACE by simply cutting their budget, instead of ensuring that they had the correct priorities, then he has failed in his responsibilities.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by techumseh The first one is from an individual environmental group's submission to the Senate committee. There may be a lot of truth to what they're saying, which is basically that the ACE does a lot of environmental damage with some of their projects, but that doesn't mean that Bush's cuts and the administration's misdirection aren't very much to blame here. The second link is to a taxpayer's group, which, if they're anything like the ones up here, don't really believe in government spending on anything at all.

The first link contains a whole series of unbiased sources, such as the General Accounting Office and the Army Inspector General's Office.

Originally posted by techumseh Keep in mind that Bush is responsible for the overall direction of the US government. If he responded to these criticisms of the ACE by simply cutting their budget, instead of ensuring that they had the correct priorities, then he has failed in his responsibilities.

The same could be said of every president for the last 40 years. Much as I dislike George W. Bush, why single out him?

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
The first link contains a whole series of unbiased sources, such as the General Accounting Office and the Army Inspector General's Office.

The same could be said of every president for the last 40 years. Much as I dislike George W. Bush, why single out him?

Because of the cuts to the ACE budget in the last couple of years. And the huge cuts to FEMA, it's over-focus on the terrorist threat and the appointment of a horse guy as it's director. And the misdirection of the National Guard and it's equipment into Iraq. And sitting out on his Texas ranch doing little until the full scope of the disaster was obvious to everyone. And delaying and/or refusing approval for assistance from other countries. And disrupting rescue and recovery operations in order to stage photo ops. And for being the smirking, lying, creepy little warmonger that he is.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by techumseh Because of the cuts to the ACE budget in the last couple of years.

According to THIS article, the cuts have little if anything to do with the levies that failed, thereby supporting my argument that the money is being mis-spent.

Unfunded projects include widening drainage canals, flood- proofing bridges and building pumping stations in Orleans and Jefferson parishes. The Corps also wants to build levees in unprotected areas on the West Bank.

The rest of your response has nothing to do with the Corps of Engineers.

[DanS]

Wasn't the previous head of the Corps of Engineers (the one who's giving all of the interviews) fired because he constantly went behind the administration's back to congress to undercut Bush, his boss, and kept pushing for huge increases in the Corps budget for pork (like in the 50% increase range)?

Yeh, I'm starting to remember that guy...

[DanS]

What I'm interested in is the fact that FEMA under Brown was said to do a good job in 2004 with the hurricanes in Florida. What changed between then and now? Could it be that New Orleans really doesn't get hit with too many hurricanes and therefore the locals weren't prepared? The Florida officials deal with hurricanes hitting someplace in the state every year.

[Jack_www]

From all the news coverage that I have seen about this dissaster and the comments made by DHS and FEMA and coverage of the actions of State and local governmnet, a lot of this came about because of poor planing and forsight. The Sectary of DHS was stated a news conference that they never expected that a Hurricane and Flood to hit New Orleans at the same time. This is just stupid to me. Anyone with a brain could figure out that if a massive hurricane hit New Orleans that the city would get flooded. The Sectary of DHS seems like a guy who cannot lead any kind of effective relief effort and know more about paper pushing then anything else. Also the state and local govenment did have enough time to evacuate the city, at least I think so, but many were hoping the hurricane would hit else where instead of planing for the worst case and planing accordingly.

After the Hurricane hit, no one was perpared for the flood and there was no one heading the relief effort in New Orleans and getting everyone on the same page untill like 5 days after the flood and that is when things started to happen and they finnaly evacuated the city. To me this just comes down to poor planing and people hoping for the best instead of planing for the worst.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by DanS
What I'm interested in is the fact that FEMA under Brown was said to do a good job in 2004 with the hurricanes in Florida. What changed between then and now?

It's not an election year, and it's not a key state?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Adam Smith

Much as I dislike George W. Bush, why single out him?

Something about him being elected President recently ?

It's hard I know to blame Carter for this, but I'm sure conservatives will find a way.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: the survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands.

America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one. From the day of our Founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and earth.

Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time.



Freedom, by its nature, must be chosen, and defended by citizens, and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. And when the soul of a nation finally speaks, the institutions that arise may reflect customs and traditions very different from our own. America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way.

The great objective of ending tyranny is the concentrated work of generations. The difficulty of the task is no excuse for avoiding it. America's influence is not unlimited, but fortunately for the oppressed, America's influence is considerable, and we will use it confidently in freedom's cause.

My most solemn duty is to protect this nation and its people against further attacks.

America will not pretend .... that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies.

America's belief in human dignity will guide our policies...

Americans, of all people, should never be surprised by the power of our ideals.

To serve your people you must learn to trust them.

By our efforts, we have lit a fire as well...

I ask our youngest citizens to believe the evidence of your eyes. You have seen that life is fragile...

In America's ideal of freedom, citizens find the dignity and security of economic independence, instead of laboring on the edge of subsistence.

And now we will extend this vision by reforming great institutions to serve the needs of our time. To give every American a stake in the promise and future of our country, we will bring the highest standards to our schools, and build an ownership society. We will widen the ownership of homes and businesses, retirement savings and health insurance - preparing our people for the challenges of life in a free society. By making every citizen an agent of his or her own destiny, we will give our fellow Americans greater freedom from want and fear, and make our society more prosperous and just and equal.

In America's ideal of freedom, the public interest depends on private character - on integrity, and tolerance toward others, and the rule of conscience in our own lives.

Our nation relies on men and women who look after a neighbor and surround the lost with love. Americans, at our best, value the life we see in one another, and must always remember that even the unwanted have worth. And our country must abandon all the habits of racism, because we cannot carry the message of freedom and the baggage of bigotry at the same time.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/01/20050120-1.html

So he said all those noble things, but did he mean he'd actually do anything about bringing them to pass ?

Too late for Vera.

A makeshift tomb at a New Orleans street corner conceals a body that had been lying on the sidewalk for days in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
At the very least, at least the Mayor got most of his people out of the city, this could have been much worse, as sad as it is now.

He did it smart by making sure that most of the tax paying citizens escaped. Those who didn't contribute as much were left to their fate.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


It is blaming the vicitim.

Sometimes "the victim" ( in this case the city of NO and the state of LA) deserves some blame.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MOBIUS




The search is over folks - I think we have found the new Ned!

If only your capabilities and usefulness as a poster were a tenth of his.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Adam Smith


Second, Corps of Engineers. The problem IS NOT that they don't have enough money. The problem IS that they don't spend it appropriately.
From a STATEMENT before the Environmental and Public Works Subcommittee of the US Senate, June 18, 2002:
Several pages of examples follow this quote.

SIMILARLY from just last year:


edit: formatting

Adam Smith, that's a nice reference, but it doesn't mention anything specific about the situation in New Orleans. It's just an overall generalization.