Female Catholic priest to be ordained

[Ben Kenobi]

At some point the non-obedience of the followers breaks into the heirarchy. It's extremely hard to shield that heirarchy from followers who may believe something different.

Actually, in many cases, it is the rank and file who hold the heirarchy to account, especially in the case of priests and bishops.

Rufus, I think that perhaps they believe in the Church so strongly they can't break away from it, but realize it can change dramatically (as Vatican II would show). They work for that change inside the Church. Though yes, a bottom up change in Catholic dogma would run contrary to the whole notion of the religion.

Many folks who push for change are inspired by the second vatican council, but in these particular changes, they seem more inspired by the world around them. One thing I have noticed, at least in my home parish, that it is the older people who push for this change, while the younger ones want the church to stay the same. I had a long discussion with one of the other new converts, who said the Catholic church will have to change, and I said, well, it probably will, but not in the way that you expect it too. It's a very unusual situation, but for young people who want a home inside the church, they want the church to be the thing that does not change to be like everything else.

[Ben Kenobi]

I grew up Catholic -- deep, believing, altar-boy Catholic -- but eventually couldn't square the faith with my other faith in progressive liberalism.

That's the thing about Catholicism. They demand your faith in the church to be stronger than anything else, including liberalism, or conservatism, or anything else. I'm pleased that you are honest enough to say that you had a faith in progressive liberalism, and rather than trying to mould the church to progressive liberalism, you chose to leave. I think the church would be much more stronger if other catholics recognised that they really have a faith in progressive liberalism, that is stronger than their faith in Catholicism, and followed your example.

[Ben Kenobi]

Staying in the RCC to defy the Pope is a little like joining the Marines in order to do your own thing.

Well said. I think that will go on my sig.

[Imran Siddiqui]

From the pope's point of view, what is modern now, is not going to be modern later, but the teachings of the church are timeless.

Mysogyny is timeless

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by St Leo

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

True, but they need to recognize that people do defy them already.

Yes, and as Rufus pointed out, the people who defy them are called Protestants.

They are also called Sinners.

What's the difference?

[Ramo]

Good for her.

[ajbera]

I think it's high time for another schism. You can never have too many religions. Someday, everyone will have their own.

[DarkCloud]

One thing I have noticed, at least in my home parish, that it is the older people who push for this change, while the younger ones want the church to stay the same.

Which is an current american phenomenon (which doesn't make it right or wrong, but which helps explain why its happening) and indeed, it is happening across all aspects of society- haven't you noticed...

1.) Children tend to 'react' to their parents. Oppressive liberalism has dominated all of America since the 1960's... before that oppressive conformism dominated in the 50's.

2.) These younger ones haven't had to struggle with/deal with the rock-headedness of oppressive tradition for long, and have instead had to deal with idiotic liberalist policies, so instead they cling to loud, denounciary reactionary tradition which provides an opposition to the whiny liberal.

3.) In a changing society, people cling to the normal and the static rather than the changing for stability and guidance. In a crisis of faith- people seek stability.

[DarkCloud]

All this being said, the main Catholic opposition to female priests (that I have heard) is, (simplifying it greatly from philosophical arguments I have read) basing their decision on the fact that Jesus had no female disciples and that all are called to serve 'in their own ways' and that females are simply not called to lead churches.

Frankly, I don't see why the matter is a doctrine of faith, or why it has to be. But, that's the way that the Church looks at it.

Maybe the ideas behind the doctrine revolve around the idea that all available women must be put to use caring for and producing children to ensure the continued survival of a new generation- since more men are born than women and women tended to die in childbirth in the elder ages- so the current phenomenon of women outnumbering men (who tend to die in wars and in gang-violence, etc.) wasn't as big a problem.

[DarkCloud]

But as hard as it was to leave the Church, I can't imagine staying and just picking and choosing what you want to believe, like the Catechism is some kind of dim sum menu. That seems like keeping the Church but losing the religion, and what's the point of that?

Well, Rufus, my greatest sympathies with your struggle, and I can see your point- however, if you do believe in God- there is nothing keeping you from attending masses to praise him. Just attend a Church that isn't malevolent in its preaching and where you don't have to be pressured to say you believe in something that you don't (or to be insulted by the pastor in his homilies...)

Frankly, I might be classified as one of those 'Cafeteria Catholics' (though I did spend 1 month as a Lutheran thanks to Norway's national religion ) that you mention as 'keeping the Church but losing the religion.' However, I consider attending mass to be an important part of spirituality since it can acknowledge God's creative powers and thank him in a way that is not otherwise possible.

Honestly, I know that I shouldn't be a Catholic, but I'm a Church Cantor, and I was even a Eucharistic Minister for a time (until I realized that It was a bit hypocritical to do so, especially considering that I'm a bit of an Agnostic/Unitarian and while I won't deny that the bread 'COULD' be Jesus, I don't believe that it necessarily 'IS' him.)

Also, on this issue of female priests, like many issues with the church (such as faith v. works wherein I'm basically a Pelagian [I think that's the term]) I differ from its stance.

Indeed, I don't hold much respect for the Pope- he, like all priests, is merely a man. There is nothing special about him or the doctrines that he states.

And the Marian Doctrines- they're hogwash- and tend to accidentally encourage people to degenerate into Mary-worship and semi-paganism.

The issue that the church aims at is worship of God... But it, like all other institutions crafted by human hands, sometimes falls short of the goal, getting lost in the semantics like the Pharisees who condemned Jesus for healing the man with the withered hand on the Lord's Day.

To realize that is not to deny your faith, but to search deep within yourself and look for the truth- finding God in all things.

That being said, I realize that I do not know you and I do not want to patronize you or offer you vacant words that don't lead anywhere... I am not a theologian, and am only an amateur philosopher. I'm just making a few statements here that may or may not be helpful.

And by the way, thanks for the answer to my Private Message! It gave me a great deal of information that led to much introspection.

[Adam Smith]

Rufus:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Catholicism is killing this country, and the rules on contraception are a big part of that.

The BBC's REPORT on the recent funeral of Manila's Cardinal Sin included the following:

Many mourners shed tears as the homily was read, while outside the cathedral, people waved colourful umbrellas and released doves.

His successor as Manila archbishop, Gaudencio Rosales, called Sin a "prophet"

"He was more than a pastor... he was the ultimate, outspoken prophet who was completely unafraid of despots and those who were unjust, dishonest and oppressive," he said.

Cardinal Sin was revered for the role he played in marshalling street protests that ousted two presidents, Ferdinand Marcos in 1986 and Joseph Estrada in 2001.

He spoke out against injustice and poverty as much as abortion and birth control in this country of 86m, a population which is still growing.

Millions of Filipinos will remember him warmly as the man who led two people power uprisings and shaped Philippine history.

Is your assessment based on all factors, or exclusively / primarily the contraception issue?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Rufus:

The BBC's REPORT on the recent funeral of Manila's Cardinal Sin included the following:
Is your assessment based on all factors, or exclusively / primarily the contraception issue?

My assessment is based on a number of factors, not just contraception. That does nothing to take away from the hugely important role Sin played in getting rid of the Marcoses, but that's a political/institutional role, not a religious one. (It's also worth noting that Sin backed the Marcoses long after they scuttled democracy; he spent the first decade after martial law was declared seeming to have no problem with the arrangement.) I think the Catholic faith as preached and practiced (admittedly quite imperfectly) here has hindered the development of Philippine society.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

DarkCloud - Sounds like we've gone through very similar things and taken different paths in dealing with it. I get where you're coming from, though.

Originally posted by DarkCloud
And by the way, thanks for the answer to my Private Message! It gave me a great deal of information that led to much introspection.

Any time. Let me know if/when more questions arise.

[Last Conformist]

You have to grant it to Cardinal Sin, tho, that he's got the coolest name of any hierarch.

Cardinal Sin

[Ben Kenobi]

All this being said, the main Catholic opposition to female priests (that I have heard) is, (simplifying it greatly from philosophical arguments I have read) basing their decision on the fact that Jesus had no female disciples and that all are called to serve 'in their own ways' and that females are simply not called to lead churches.

In my earlier thread, the Anglican lady gives the Catholic argument, which is what caught my eye. The idea that inside the church there are different roles for men and women, and that the role for men is to be the leaders of the church, in the sense of being priests. She also cites Apostle Paul, who says there are certain requirements for an elder of a church, one of them being male.

The argument that Jesus had no female disciples, is countered by the fact that Christ's first witnesses to the resurrection were women, and the role in which we see many of Christ's female followers play. I haven't seen that argument used too often, since the separate roles seems a much stronger one.