Tiannanmen Massacre Anniversary

[Kuciwalker]

exactly as predicted

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Agathon
Ask me again in five years and I may change my mind, but since Tiananmen, the Chinese government has a reasonably good report card from me.

Well, there was that little incident where the Chinese jet crashed into our intelligence place over international waters, and then seized our plane because we were forced to make an emergency landing.

And they do use a lot of prison labor and child labor to produce cheap goods. Just last month, there was a story about a group of teenage girl workers who were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes. They were buried so quickly that no one noticed that three were still alive. Their parents exumed their bodies to find scatch marks on the inside of the coffins as well as dried barf.

Not my favorite country.

[Agathon]

Well, there was that little incident where the Chinese jet crashed into our intelligence place over international waters, and then seized our plane because we were forced to make an emergency landing.

Y'know... everyone else in the world thought you deserved that. Let me ask you what response a Chinese plane patrolling and spying on the US coast would have received.

The Chinese pilot died. Your lot at least got away with your lives, and you were in their neighbourhood engaged in espionage against them. Yet you are supposed to be the victims here. Give me a break...

That's the problem with you Americans, you think you are so special that the rules don't apply to you.

And they do use a lot of prison labor and child labor to produce cheap goods. Just last month, there was a story about a group of teenage girl workers who were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes. They were buried so quickly that no one noticed that three were still alive. Their parents exumed their bodies to find scatch marks on the inside of the coffins as well as dried barf.

Americans are not the people to be lecturing others about prison labour. And I think this sucks... which foreign corporations did these girls work for, and how many Americans use the cheap products they make?

[Kuciwalker]

The Chinese pilot died. Your lot at least got away with your lives, and you were in their neighbourhood engaged in espionage against them. Yet you are supposed to be the victims here.

He rammed us.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Agathon

The Chinese pilot died. Your lot at least got away with your lives, and you were in their neighbourhood engaged in espionage against them. Yet you are supposed to be the victims here. Give me a break...

That's the problem with you Americans, you think you are so special that the rules don't apply to you.

Not espionage but intelligence gathering. It's legal to gather intelligence in international waters -- Soviet trawlers used to do it all the time.

The Chinese pilot flew recklessly and crashed into us. His death is a tragedy, but it wasn't our fault.

[Agathon]

He rammed us.

According to what your lot said. He's dead and can't speak for himself.

What were they doing there anyway. ****ing spying on the Chinese, that's what. I can only imagine the response the Chinese would receive if they did the same.

Self righteous hypocrites.

[Agathon]

Not espionage but intelligence gathering. It's legal to gather intelligence in international waters -- Soviet trawlers used to do it all the time.

Nice little semantic game. If Chinese aircraft routinely did the same to you, you'd whine like stuck pigs.

The Chinese pilot flew recklessly and crashed into us. His death is a tragedy, but it wasn't our fault.

So says you. As I said, he's dead and can't speak for himself. Even if this is true, why must it be a reflection on the whole Chinese government?

I don't care who's fault it was. You are trying to push all the blame onto the Chinese.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Agathon

He rammed us.

According to what your lot said. He's dead and can't speak for himself.

Use your common sense. We're flying a big old plane which is about as manuevable as a bus. He's in a fast, highly manuverable fighter buzzing us. Who do you think ran into who?

What were they doing there anyway. ****ing spying on the Chinese, that's what.

Gathering intelligence, that's what. Spying is illegal, gathering intelligence over international waters is legal.

I can only imagine the response the Chinese would receive if they did the same.

We'd grumble about them the same way we, for decades, grumbled about the Soviet trawlers.

Self righteous hypocrites.

For that, talk about Secretary Rice lecturing the Arab states about trafficking in human beings the same day a slave labor camp is discovered in Florida.

[MrFun]

It just ocurred to me . . . . .



Agathon is not making any sense in this thread.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by MrFun
It just ocurred to me . . . . .



Agathon is not making any sense in this thread.

... as opposed to the other threads in which he does make sense?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Zkribbler

And they do use a lot of prison labor and child labor to produce cheap goods. Just last month, there was a story about a group of teenage girl workers who were overcome by carbon monoxide fumes. They were buried so quickly that no one noticed that three were still alive. Their parents exumed their bodies to find scatch marks on the inside of the coffins as well as dried barf.

Yes, there is a problem with child labor in China, but simply blaming the government is simplistic.

The problem is caused:
- lack of government resources available to enforce child labor laws;
- poor families deciding to send their children to work instead of school;
- unscrupulous business people.

Child labor is common in all economically under-developed countries. It is not a China problem. It is a poverty problem.


From an LA Times story about that case:

...

"The Chinese government officially forbids children under 16 from working, but critics say it does little to enforce the law. Statistics are hard to come by, but in some estimates, as many as 10 million school-age children are doing their part to turn China into a low-cost manufacturing powerhouse.

...

"In principle, China is committed to ending child labor. According to the International Labor Organization, China has ratified two ILO conventions on labor practices. Convention 138 forbids minors under 15 from working. Convention 182 bans the worst forms of child labor, including prostitution and slave labor.

"But this is a country where making laws is much easier than implementing them. Youths desperate to help their families or simply tired of village life can easily lie about their age and use fake identity papers. Employers eager to hire them for their nimble hands and low cost often don't bother to check.

"This is a society in transition," said Hans van de Glind of the ILO's office in Beijing, who is working with the Chinese government on a pilot project to prevent trafficking of girls for labor exploitation. "The intention is there to make progress."

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Yes, there is a problem with child labor in China, but simply blaming the government is simplistic.

The problem is caused:
- lack of government resources available to enforce child labor laws;
- poor families deciding to send their children to work instead of school;
- unscrupulous business people.

Child labor is common in all economically under-developed countries. It is not a China problem. It is a poverty problem.


From an LA Times story about that case:

...

"The Chinese government officially forbids children under 16 from working, but critics say it does little to enforce the law. Statistics are hard to come by, but in some estimates, as many as 10 million school-age children are doing their part to turn China into a low-cost manufacturing powerhouse.

...

"In principle, China is committed to ending child labor. According to the International Labor Organization, China has ratified two ILO conventions on labor practices. Convention 138 forbids minors under 15 from working. Convention 182 bans the worst forms of child labor, including prostitution and slave labor.

"But this is a country where making laws is much easier than implementing them. Youths desperate to help their families or simply tired of village life can easily lie about their age and use fake identity papers. Employers eager to hire them for their nimble hands and low cost often don't bother to check.

"This is a society in transition," said Hans van de Glind of the ILO's office in Beijing, who is working with the Chinese government on a pilot project to prevent trafficking of girls for labor exploitation. "The intention is there to make progress."

Ya know, China doesn't seem to have nearly as much trouble enforcing laws against dissidents... maybe they don't want to enforce the child-labor laws?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


... as opposed to the other threads in which he does make sense?

Young Jedi, one must never become overly cynical of other people's capability to overcome being nonsensical. Shall you give into cynicism, it is one step closer to the temptations of the dark side.

[mrmitchell]

^^^I don't know for a fact that UR lives in China. Common sense would suggest that he does, considering the nature of his posts and whatnot, but the authorative (heh) answer would have to come from UR himself.

AFAIK

I've read, I think

UR is a manager or some kind of administrator at some computer or IT-related company/business/department/whatever
UR is in Hong Kong
UR was born and all his family is in Northern China
UR alone moved from that family to Hong Kong
UR has been in China all his life
UR has friends that work in the factories a bit further inland. Dunno if they are the sweatshop laborers, professionals, or bosses.

But that's all I think he has ever posted about himself.

*It might be Shanghai instead of Hong Kong.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by MrFun
Young Jedi, one must never become overly cynical of other people's capability to overcome being nonsensical. Shall you give into cynicism, it is one step closer to the temptations of the dark side.

The Dark Side