Danish PM calls for Russia to apologize to Baltics

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Saras
There ARE NO "POLICIES". What are your sources for this bull****?

Things like that: http://www.aceproject.org/main/english/lf/lfy_lv.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3677383.stm

Yes, they deal with Latvia, which is the worst country by far. Last time I inquired about the issue, I saw that Estonia was less extreme, while Lithuania had a much more peaceful approach to it russophone minority.

Again, the Roma (Gypsies is a non-pc word ) did not invade Hungary, deport a significant part of its population and replace the with Roma. Feel the difference?

Of course.
But in the EU, you don't base policies on past grudges. That's how the EU got built in the first place, when the French and German governments decided to forgive the past, despite a large hatred for Germany in the French population (and there are still real traces to this day).
Maybe that's why so many EU countries are so zealous about official apologies, and overall weeniness. Because the very reason why the EU is successful at its primary mission (keeping the peace between European countries) is because we refuse to base our policies on grudges, but on the way we want to see the world tomorrow.

For clarity of future discussion - the "Baltics" are three separate and different countries, with an extremely different pre-XIX century history. By lumping them together one risks attributing traits of just one to all three. Such as the whole Russian minority issue.

True. I didn't intend to lump Lithuania among with the other two on the issue, because things are much more satisfying in Lithuania. And again, the most extreme case is Latvia.

[Pekka]

baltic countries deserves more than an apology. They should get a billion euros every year, to pay back what has been done in their countries. You look at them now. They are quickly rising and yes, there are some hot spots already. Estonia has one of the most rising economies, it's a place to set up a business right now, the government is extremely business friendly, for foreigners too. Taxes? What taxes

When the commie let the baltics go, they started doing better immidiately. The past echoes eternity, when the echo is not changed. Putin has taken few steps back, including history, and is going with the old recipe, which is not only worrying, but seems to be working.

I say keep your guns close to bed fellows, the rapists might be here again any day now.. and we must drive them to the sea this time so we can live peacefully and prosper. They are in our way, because they are eeevil!
Do your duty!

[Saras]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Originally posted by Saras
There ARE NO "POLICIES". What are your sources for this bull****?

Things like that: http://www.aceproject.org/main/english/lf/lfy_lv.htm

1997.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3677383.stm

A protest is not proof of sich policies, there's plenty of protests in democratic countries about everything.

Yes, they deal with Latvia, which is the worst country by far. Last time I inquired about the issue, I saw that Estonia was less extreme, while Lithuania had a much more peaceful approach to it russophone minority.

What approach? There IS no approach. We do not care if they're russians, lithuanians, basque or french.

But in the EU, you don't base policies on past grudges. That's how the EU got built in the first place, when the French and German governments decided to forgive the past, despite a large hatred for Germany in the French population (and there are still real traces to this day).
Maybe that's why so many EU countries are so zealous about official apologies, and overall weeniness. Because the very reason why the EU is successful at its primary mission (keeping the peace between European countries) is because we refuse to base our policies on grudges, but on the way we want to see the world tomorrow.

You completely miss the point. The reason for this whole fuss is Russia running out of sticks to use on Baltic countries in its foreign policy. Since carrots are not really very Russian - style, they're desperate to have this nonissue discussed in EU and elsewhere. And used against us. And you guys play along.

True. I didn't intend to lump Lithuania among with the other two on the issue, because things are much more satisfying in Lithuania. And again, the most extreme case is Latvia.

Originally posted by Spiffor
<...>the Baltic's treatment of their Russian minorities is one of the EU's worst disappointments. <...>

[Saras]

Originally posted by Pekka
baltic countries deserves more than an apology. They should get a billion euros every year, to pay back what has been done in their countries. You look at them now. They are quickly rising and yes, there are some hot spots already. Estonia has one of the most rising economies, it's a place to set up a business right now, the government is extremely business friendly, for foreigners too. Taxes? What taxes

When the commie let the baltics go, they started doing better immidiately. The past echoes eternity, when the echo is not changed. Putin has taken few steps back, including history, and is going with the old recipe, which is not only worrying, but seems to be working.

I say keep your guns close to bed fellows, the rapists might be here again any day now.. and we must drive them to the sea this time so we can live peacefully and prosper. They are in our way, because they are eeevil!
Do your duty!

Where the hell is our nokias, metsaserlas, fortums and ruukkis? Where is our EUR 30'000+/capita GDP?

[Pekka]

They will be there, soon! We all know baltics is the place were real growth is happening and will happen. The catching up part. It's anyones game soon, but it's ok be cause baltics are cool

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Saras
You completely miss the point. The reason for this whole fuss is Russia running out of sticks to use on Baltic countries in its foreign policy. Since carrots are not really very Russian - style, they're desperate to have this nonissue discussed in EU and elsewhere. And used against us. And you guys play along.

There's a diplomatic reason (and I agree the Russian government blows it way out of proportion, just like it used to do with the Kaliningrad status). And there's a domestic reason as well: I don't know any foreign power that cares about the Roma in Hungary, yet they are probably the minority issue the EU is most interested in (and it resulted in the Roma having parliamentary representation and specific schools).

The EU isn't exactly afraid of defending its interests over Russia's, as we have seen during the Ukrainian election.

[Saras]

[Pekka]

But as you know best, the attitude will never change, or at least it will take a long time to change. Some of them people still think they actually did you a favour, and you should be happy about it and not all hostile. Basically thinking they taught you to walk so you can now fly.

Which is an interesting interpretation of history, not to mention borderline offending to many. And then they call you to change your attitudes. It's pretty ironic .

The bottom line is, we don't need to do anything. If there needs to be mutual understanding and happy feelings, the baltics are not the ones who need to make the adjustment. They are pretty much doing their own thing now, and if someone is feeling lonely because you can't boss them around anymore, well that's just too bad. And that's the bottom line. If you want something, you need to make it happen instead of waiting it'll drop in front of your door. If not willing to do that, then there IS no genuine feeling where something that was done is considered a bit troubling even today.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Pekka
The bottom line is, we don't need to do anything. If there needs to be mutual understanding and happy feelings, the baltics are not the ones who need to make the adjustment. They are pretty much doing their own thing now, and if someone is feeling lonely because you can't boss them around anymore, well that's just too bad. And that's the bottom line. If you want something, you need to make it happen instead of waiting it'll drop in front of your door. If not willing to do that, then there IS no genuine feeling where something that was done is considered a bit troubling even today.

DAMN STRAIGHT!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
The bottom line is, we don't need to do anything.

Why shouldn't we do something, in order to become the area where human rights are the most respected?

Edit: Why shou.ld we wait for the Russians before cleaning our house?

[Saras]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Why shouldn't we do something, in order to become the area where human rights are the most respected?

Edit: Why shou.ld we wait for the Russians before cleaning our house?

Are you against Israeli settlments of Palestinian territories? I'm curious

[Saras]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Why shouldn't we do something, in order to become the area where human rights are the most respected?

I think pekka meant the OP. The burden of apology is certainly on the Russian Federation.

And "human rights abuses" are worse in France i.e. scarf ban

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Saras
Are you against Israeli settlments of Palestinian territories? I'm curious

Yes, when it comes to the outposts in the Gaza strip and the west bank, because I consider the adults there to be willing agents of a dream of Grand Israel.
I'm against removing the established suburbs of Jerusalem.

If we had discussed the issue 30 years ago, I'd have been supportive of anti-Russophone policies. Because the Russophones would be recent immigrants, and not their children. Today, those who are punished did not choose their situation (mind you, maybe the original Russians were forced to migrate too)

[Pekka]

it's not about human rights, what I'm talking about. I don't even know what this russians being second class citizens is all about.

I'm talking in general. The inability to admit the failures and wrongdoings in the past is only making it worse today in a way, because it's been so long, so how come it can't be recognized? Someone is clearly living in the past, still, and hoping that there never needs to be any admitting of failure, because the main feelings and main points of history relies solely on beating the fascists during the second world war. That's it. So what happened after that is seen as.. what was necessary.

That is, of course, superpower thinking. Was it necessary then? I don't know. Ask what baltic people think about it now. IN the play of superpowers, the little ones get always stomped, and no one ever asks what they think about it, because they are always 'the necessary' part. People kind of feel it's not fair, but it's necessary. Well guess what, now that the tables have turned a little bit more to equal, it's time to look back and make things better. But it sure as hell does not start from the little necessary collateral folks saying anything.

You see, this is a cornerstone for Putin. He would need to apologize, meaning he would admit there was something done that was wrong or at least troubling. Do you see him giving apologies to anyone? He pulled out our relations regaring the war as well, we just had a lecturer in the Uni of Helsinki, being angry about 'the recent' propaganda of Finland, us claiming we didn't start the war? He should listen more carefully, that's all we have said always, that's what the history books say, that's what the facts are, that's what both sides investigators agree on, that's what all the veterans agree on, in both sides, that's what the former president agreed on (Yeltsin) and apologized for etc etc, it's gone to the path of trivial already, and now he pulls it all back, and we were the ones guilty of everything, and we were fascists and we started the wars and all that. Hey you can think what you want about that era and the situation, but going that far with BS and lies is unbelievable.

You think he's going to apologize baltic countries? Hell no. And to even think, that it's the baltic countries who should go on and say they are sorry for something, to say they need to be little more humble to deserve the apology, basically making THEM to be at fault is a redicilous idea, outrageous and nothing but a damn shame.

And no, this isn't about what russian folks in baltic countries have to deal with because I don't really know about that situation anything at all.

All I'm saying is that someone wants to play omnipotent, where baltic countries would have to start being good servants again. The main play is pretty visible, where someone still considers some countries to be satellite countries, that can be used in other plays, as components and amplifiers of ones own politics. I would know, because I live in one of those countries. What can I say? Too bad. You see tears in my cheek.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Saras
Guys, are there requirements besides "have lived there for a long damn time" to gain citizenship in USA? France? UK? Sweden?

Thought so.

At least in the US everyone born here is an automatic citizen.