Danish PM calls for Russia to apologize to Baltics

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Well, the government will never do so as long as it can paint Europe as anti-Russian and if the EU tolerates its members oppressing a Russian minority...

Well, even if the issue of the Russian minority becomes solved (and I think it'll happen, considering that the EU successfully pushed for the recognition of the rights of about one half of the minority), this won't stop the depiction of the EU as an anti-Russian construct.

As long as the Russian government wants to instill a sense of external threat to its population, anything will do, whether it is an actual concern (like the Russophone minority in the Baltics) or an excuse (like our regular weenie declarations about Chechnya, or the need for visas to go to Kaliningrad).
Besides, all of the Pro-Russian things about the EU (like this poll, that indicated that 50% of the Europeans would support a Russian adhesion to the EU on principle, vs. 45% for Turkey) will be cautiously ignored by the Russian media.

OTOH, if the Russian government decides a full blown rapprochement with the EU, all of these issues will magically become secondary in the government's communication. And lo, the EU will be seen as Russia's friends against the dangerous ambitions of the US, China, India, or whatever external threat is convenient at the time.

In any case, I don't see why Russia shouldn't question its past, no matter what the Baltics do. I don't know: have the Russians made peace with their past with the Ukrainians that starved by the million during Stalin's years? to the various Central Asiatic populations that were massively displaced or killed? To the Poles for the Katyn massacre and for purposefully having let the nazis crush the revolt in Warsaw?

You may think "yet another proof that you're anti-Russian and you don't even see it " But it's not. In the countries I live in, these questions are asked to each and every country, including our own. That's because no country has a clean past, and the memory of past horrors can be very vivid among the victims or their offspring. Are we anti-Turkish when we ask them for recognition of the Armenian genocide? Are we anti-Croatian when we ask them to hunt down one of their war criminals, who is also a war hero? Are we anti-Japanese when we wish them to get their senses and finally come clear with the horrors they wrought during WW2? Are we anti-French when we profusely apologize for toprturing Algerians?

[Saras]

Look, the whole Russians-as-second-class-citizens thing is bollocks, take my word. All that is needed is a LANGUAGE TEST. Sheesh, and one would think your allies would listen to YOU and not someone with an axe to grind

[Saras]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Too bad.

Kool, on one side we have a request to apologise for somthing close to genocide, on the other we have lazy bums not learning the language of a coutry they live in, and you think the latter is more important. Good you have your commie priorities straight

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Saras
Look, the whole Russians-as-second-class-citizens thing is bollocks, take my word. All that is needed is a LANGUAGE TEST. Sheesh, and one would think your allies would listen to YOU and not someone with an axe to grind

When one half of your country doesn't speak your official language, maybe it would be time to have several official languages, don't you think?

It's not like the idea is precisely new (hint Belgium hint)

[Saras]

You have absolutely NO clue about Baltic history, do you?

[Lancer]

"Sheesh, and one would think your allies would listen to YOU and not someone with an axe to grind "

Yeah I used to think this too. *coughfrancecough*

"Kool, on one side we have a request to apologise for somthing close to genocide, on the other we have lazy bums not learning the language of a coutry they live in, and you think the latter is more important. Good you have your commie priorities straight"

It's the criminal's rights over the victim's rights on a national scale.

Saras, when we first discussed this topic some years back you defended the Rooskies among you etc. Do you recall? We joked about them throwing hockey games or football or something...

[Lancer]

Being an injun myself, I certainly hope so.

[chequita guevara]

Wow, what a great excuse to prevent people from being-first class citizens, they speak a different language.

[Lancer]

That's ok, I'm only 1/16. If I were 1/8 then you would be pwnd.

What is pwnd anyway?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Saras
You have absolutely NO clue about Baltic history, do you?

I have little clue about Baltic history, though I think to understand that the treatment of Russophone minorities (and the language laws that come along) come from:

1. A feeling, that is largely justified, that the Russians raped your countries, massacred your people, and attempted to dissolve your identity by colonization and russification.
2. An attempt at re-creating an official national identity, that has no immediate historical legacy (considering that there hadn't been independent Baltic States for a jolly long time before 1991).

Unless I miss something extremely important, I think I can generally understand where your policies come from. But even if your feelings about Russia and national identity are justified, they don't make for good policy.

Especially for Latvia (which is the most radical of the three, and the most colonised by Russians), today's societies are largely divided, as a large chunk of the population belongs to an ethnic minority.
The EU way is not to exclude the minorities, no matter the bad feelings about them. That's why the EU gives lessons to Hungary with its Gypsy minority (and Hungary has made amazing progresses on the matter). That's why we'll bother Romania to no end with their Magyar minority. That's why the EU initiated the Charter for regional languages.

And that's why the EU is the main force behind the fact that Russophones are less excluded from the Baltic societies than a decade ago.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lancer
"Sheesh, and one would think your allies would listen to YOU and not someone with an axe to grind "

Yeah I used to think this too. *coughfrancecough*

Oops, sorry, I haven't noticed I had whitewashed the Russians in this thread

Originally posted by Spiffor
In any case, I don't see why Russia shouldn't question its past, no matter what the Baltics do. I don't know: have the Russians made peace with their past with the Ukrainians that starved by the million during Stalin's years? to the various Central Asiatic populations that were massively displaced or killed? To the Poles for the Katyn massacre and for purposefully having let the nazis crush the revolt in Warsaw?

I'm such a pro-Russian whore

[Ned]

The more Russia can distance itself from the Stalin era, the better.

It did this once, soon after he died. I find it hard to believe that the current generation no longer is condemning the good "Uncle Joe" and his abuses of just about everyone he contacted.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Spiffor
2. An attempt at re-creating an official national identity, that has no immediate historical legacy (considering that there hadn't been independent Baltic States for a jolly long time before 1991).

Unless I miss something extremely important

All three were independent for twenty-two years in 1918-1940. That counts as an immediate historical legacy IMHO.

The independence stemmed from nationalist movements kin to pan-Slavism, Young Turkism, the Finnish thing responsible for the Kalevala, and so on.

Especially for Latvia (which is the most radical of the three, and the most colonised by Russians), today's societies are largely divided, as a large chunk of the population belongs to an ethnic minority.

You can't get a Canadian citizenship without knowing English or French. Moo.

I can't figure out a good Israel analogy, but I am sure one exists.

[Az]

Language tests are not enough: there should be a positive integrative cultural pressure - in this I fully agree with the baltics.

However, for older people already living in the country just as much time as most baltics ( who cares where your daddy lived ) putting language tests as a limit is just laughing in their faces.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Spiffor
1. A feeling, that is largely justified, that the Russians raped your countries, massacred your people, and attempted to dissolve your identity by colonization and russification.

Not really. The ones that did that on a large scale (1940-1941 and 1944-1956) are largely dead, or senile.

2. An attempt at re-creating an official national identity, that has no immediate historical legacy (considering that there hadn't been independent Baltic States for a jolly long time before 1991).

www.wikipedia.com. You NEED to read up.

Unless I miss something extremely important, I think I can generally understand where your policies come from. But even if your feelings about Russia and national identity are justified, they don't make for good policy.

Look, for chrissakes, we have a Russian minister of ECONOMY, born in Archangelsk. A number of MP's, plenty of 2nd and 3rd tier officials, especially on the municipal level. There ARE NO "POLICIES". What are your sources for this bull****?

Especially for Latvia (which is the most radical of the three, and the most colonised by Russians), today's societies are largely divided, as a large chunk of the population belongs to an ethnic minority.
The EU way is not to exclude the minorities, no matter the bad feelings about them. That's why the EU gives lessons to Hungary with its Gypsy minority (and Hungary has made amazing progresses on the matter). That's why we'll bother Romania to no end with their Magyar minority. That's why the EU initiated the Charter for regional languages.

Again, the Roma (Gypsies is a non-pc word ) did not invade Hungary, deport a significant part of its population and replace the with Roma. Feel the difference?

And that's why the EU is the main force behind the fact that Russophones are less excluded from the Baltic societies than a decade ago.

For clarity of future discussion - the "Baltics" are three separate and different countries, with an extremely different pre-XIX century history. By lumping them together one risks attributing traits of just one to all three. Such as the whole Russian minority issue.