What have we learned from Iraq?

[Lancer]

"Now, much of the opposition to the Iraq war, both here and in Europe, I am sure, is that the war opponents appear to have believed that the US fixation on WMD was a "pretext" and the real reason that Bush wanted the war was the US Imperialist desire to control Iraqi OIL."

Which we pay for btw. Just the same as when we buy Saudi oil or North Sea oil...

I don't think the war for oil arguement had any validity in retrospect, just more BS.

[Pekka]

Lancer, right.. I don't think we should join right now. I think we should play the smart card we are playing, which is keeping it open and not joining until we have to. Because we are a small place with small resources. So keep our own abilities as high as we can, but realizing what we can do and what we can't do, and keeping the options open. We need to do what's right for us. We can't afford making mistakes.

But let's get it straight. I'm playing both sides. On the other hand, I do believe France and Germany was right. But I also believe that US was not wrong. I don't think Dubya had oil in his mind and he wanted to pay back what his father didn't do. The intel and what he was shown indicated what he spoke. ALSO, he has big responsiblity and resources.. in the heat of debates, why take the chance... you could go over there, make sure, and if nothing else, then well Saddam was a bad dictator anyway, so there would be something to be done anyway. Is this a real reason to go to war? I don't know, but what I'm saying is that he did what he felt was the right decision and played it safe. It's easy to be a smart guy after facts are here now...... so yeah. I think no one was right or wrong, things just happened. Is it productive to debate about it, sure, but emotions should be left aside.

[Lancer]

"MEANWHILE IT'S BEEN 4 ****ING YEARS AND WE STILL DO NOT HAVE OSAMA BIN LADEN."

Supposedly he's in northern Pakistan. Should we invade?

[Patroklos]

Is that it, what a disappointment B :

And the resistance is quite apt at adapting to changing situations, we've discovered.

What exactly, have they adapted to? If you mean switching from killing Americans to Iraqis, then yes they are regular camelians(sp?).

How many nations have dropped out of the Iraq effort since the invasion and it became obvious no WMDs were to be found?

Pop Quiz: what was the event that caused all their withdrawls? Sure as hell wasn't WMDs. Thats like blaming the war in the first place for them dropping out. And again, the reason why they took the casualties in the first place was France and Germany's ACTIVE interferance in the operation before it began.

U.S. grab for ME dominance

I know you haven't been their so I will give you a break, but besides Iraq itself the rest of the ME goes on exactly as before.

Considering their "significant resources" were being tied up in Afghanistan at the moment

Yeah, they are breaking thier militaries back over there. Add up Fance and Germany's troops and see if you can break 4 digits. Even there they are slackers.

still seem to be operating under the stupid mindset that what the U.S. wanted to do was right. It wasn't, and they knew it.

Exactly why Sudan will remain a genocidal playground, Boris and company!

[Lancer]

"It's easy to be a smart guy after facts are here now...... "

Yeah. Here in the US we have a saying...Hindsight is 20/20.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Lancer
"MEANWHILE IT'S BEEN 4 ****ING YEARS AND WE STILL DO NOT HAVE OSAMA BIN LADEN."

Supposedly he's in northern Pakistan. Should we invade?

If we *really* wanted him we could get him. Something is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about.

On the other hand, people were pining for an invasion of Syria because "supposedly" Saddam shipped all his weapons there.

I mean, really, that's the most ridiculous story I've ever heard.

[Ted Striker]

It would also have helped not to have the armed forces tied up in Iraq.

Don't go looking for trouble because trouble finds you.

[Pekka]

Right... and when I say many americans are attaching feelings to their opinions sometimes forgetting the facts, well euros do it too. Even more so before the war began. The oil argument etc were extremely popular, and still are. It's a feeling, it's not a fact. But when it's your only 'real' argument against the war, I mean.. it means you're not basing your opinion on facts but rather feelings and emotions. So it's not something someone does, it's what they all do.

People also blame Dubya for making this emotion call mostly, but then again, he was maybe the person who actually HAD to base it on facts more than the rest of us, and the facts at the time showed differently than they do now. So, in a way, he wasn't wrong either. And folks saying well, they should leave now.. well that's the worst, leaving the power vacuum and guaranteed blood bath.

[Patroklos]

people were pining for an invasion of Syria

I have never actually heard anyone say this, what I do hear all the time is...

people were pining for an invasion of Syria

[Lancer]

"If we *really* wanted him we could get him."

Ted, didn't you hear? We had him before the presidential election and Bush was going to unviel him to squeeze some extra last minute votes.

May the BS never end, eh? It's just so entertaining.

[Lancer]

"People also blame Dubya for making this emotion call mostly, but then again, he was maybe the person who actually HAD to base it on facts more than the rest of us, and the facts at the time showed differently than they do now. So, in a way, he wasn't wrong either. And folks saying well, they should leave now.. well that's the worst, leaving the power vacuum and guaranteed blood bath."

Pekka, you've got it!

[Ted Striker]

That was a story put out by an Iranian newspaper.

[Lancer]

Ahh...

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pekka
Ted, yeah I know you would . Individual level is different. But when it coems to nations, it's a bigger scheme of things. I mean .. you can't have too much emotional leadership. More managment type, you have to rely on FACTS ONLY. Then enter other feelings, but facts first, and if they match, then play ball but if they aren't supporting you and then you go on anyway, I mean.. what the hell are you doing? Dubya thought there were WMDs, so, in a way he wasn't going against this strategy, but those who did not join, they figured they need more facts to make it count. Hey.. they did listen after being whiny girls for a while, but then wanted more facts. The fact that their own intelligence _suggested_ Iraq had WMDs, and still they wanted more evidence only tells me that they wanted to be sure first, absolutely sure. At the end, they were not sure, so their decision was based on that, and that's the way to do it. Even if in the backround there was some dealings going on, the fact that they decision still lined with this makes it the right decision. For them. And that's the only thing that counts. For them.

But anyway, too much about this.. let's make a positive comment, if Europe would see US in real danger, we WOULD come to aid and gear up. Right now Europe does not feel US is in danger though. But if it would go down, we would throw down as well, with you and against most anyone, so there, and that's a fact as well.

Most of Europe would back the US. But I think it is clear that Chirac and crew would not. Look at the French and Germans trying to sell advanced weapons to China at a time when China is threatening war with Taiwan and we are obligated to defend Taiwan.

As I said, France and Germany are seeking to undermine US policy in the world as a matter of perceived central power strategy. They apparently believe that France and Germany (and their European dictats) can be "equal partners" to arranging world affairs only if they oppose US power when they can.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Pekka
Because we are a small place with small resources.

Can't be worse than ours, and we are in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

... and if nothing else, then well Saddam was a bad dictator anyway, so there would be something to be done anyway. Is this a real reason to go to war?

I think that that is one of the very few reasons acceptable for going into a war.

Btw. you weren't that alone back in 39 - approx 1200 danish volunteers took the trip to Finland.