What have we learned from Iraq?

[Lancer]

No joke Pekka. Ok, I'll put it up until someone presents a good arguement why it doesn't belong.

BlackCat, thanks, didn't know about the sub.

[Patroklos]

Is this a joke or are you living in parallel universe

I love how so many people forget that the believed the same evidence that convinced Bush at the time.

I have learned the left are the number one producers of Monday Morning Quarterbacks. Some real talent there

[Ned]

Actually, we have also learned that the thinking that the Marshall plan inspired a defeated Germany to be our everlasting friend was also a complete pipe dream.

[Lancer]

Ned, they'll all say that we freed France for our own selfish reasons, but I'll put it up there.

[Ted Striker]

This isn't a "right" or "left" issue, unfortunatley some of you guys can't see it any other way


When you send 150,000 kids into combat to invade a country where alot of people are going to die and be miserable, that kinda supersedes politics. It's pretty disgusting that people have to think of it taht way though.

[Ted Striker]

And by the way there are a number of Senators, on the "right", including McCain and Lugar, that have critcized the whole operation.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Pekka
"The US cannot depend upon France, Germany and old europe."

"The major reason for going to war in the first place was bogus, and the resulting backlash hurt the presidency of GWB and the credibility of the US."

"The president didn't expect the post war resistance to be as strong and so wasn't ready, a major failing."

Hmm, would these be connected?

Just a thought.

can't say it hurt the presidency that badly as he was re-elected.

[Pekka]

No, I really think you are living in Fox World. You are not living in Europe at least. In here, the Powell thing MADE IT WORSE. In here, it did. What it was, a crappy powerpoint presentation with some flurry images and what not. It was horrible. And Powell was very uncomfortable.

I'm talking about the Powell thing only. There were many people who believed there MIGHT be WMDs. What happened in the UN made it worse. Hey, ask any Euro if you don't believe me.

And let's nto forget, I supported the campagn, and I still do support it, except that I would hope it would go to the right direction, meaning more troops, WAY more troops, to make it realistic operation.

People who say French this Germans that, uh oh touchy feely, hey let's get back into the real world. Majority, GREAT majority of Europeans did not believe in the opreation, it was a bad deal to begin with, so there was a hard sell. Which made it worse in here. Allies, foes, hey, we live in eurocentric world of view in here. So we see things a little differently. It's not about values in here. **** forget that. Saddam could hurt us what ever, it was not a thing that people believed in here. While you were twitching and thinking these dudes will hurt you, and we're not helping you, well we saw it as you guys are going nuts again over something that is totally laughable. Which it turned out to be, a fact.

Let's face it. Majority of Euros were right. That's the way it is. Saddam is gone, yaadayaada. No, that was not the discussion. It was about why mayn Euro countries didn't want to engage. Because the reasons were.. bogus. You could mobilize a country on those reasons, but you can't mobilize MANY countries over those reasons, while the majority opposes (because they don't believe in it, Powell making it even worse in the UN) etc etc.

And yes. I supported the action. So I belong to the minority.

[Ted Striker]

Pekka

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Lancer
Oversight of the treatment of POWs is absolutely essential.

Ambiguity makes me chuckle, but this should probably be "Overseeing".

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I love how so many people forget that the believed the same evidence that convinced Bush at the time.

I have learned the left are the number one producers of Monday Morning Quarterbacks. Some real talent there

What does that matter? Bush should have access to more information than the public does. And if he fell for the same things the average citizen did, that makes him more of a ****** not less of one. You expect the President to have more insight... seeing as thats basically his job.

[Ted Striker]

word

He wanted to invade Iraq regardless of what the evidence showed. The weapons of mass destruction was just a way to get more political backing but it backfired.

Well, it worked on die hard Bush supporters but alienated pretty much 95% of the people outside the United States.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I love how so many people forget that the believed the same evidence that convinced Bush at the time.

I certainly didn't it. I expressed doubts all along that Iraq possessed anything significant and knew the claims that they were some sort of threat to us were bs. Powell's presentation was utterly unconvincing as well except to those who wanted it to be so.

Many of us here predicted all along they wouldn't find any WMDs, because the UN Inspectors had been saying all along they couldn't find anything. We were right.

[Pekka]

Ted, Nah, I'm just overwhelmed by the argument where France and Germany sucks, after the fact that the WMDs weren't there, and the reasons for war were bogus. That's a paradox right there! ****, they were right, they didn't join, thus they are bastards.. Uhm?

It's realpolitiks in a way. Allies or not. Don't expect anyone to gear up for you, if you're making a hard sell.

What France did, for going against, now that's a .. that's something you could debate, I mean, why blocking if you could just say we won't go with it and then sit down and shut up. I'm not defending these actions.

ALl I'm saying is, they were right, we were wrong, so why some people are blaming anyone in here!?! Weird.

Besides, how cna a country be a friend and bastard every other day, depending what the news say? Go, travel, make friends, learn about places, and make your own judgement. 'France blocks the new cheese companies from selling their products in Paris'.. BASTARDS! No.. the real answer is, who the hell cares. No one is being unfriendly, except people who are going wild about france evil this germany evil that.

[DAVOUT]

The presence of Germany and France in Afganistan is likely a mistake. Unless they were prevented to go to Irak by some prejudice against preemptive wars.