What have we learned from Iraq?

[Lancer]

"The genocide going on in Sudan was much worse at the time."

True...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Lancer
Boris, nobody in this thread made that assertion that I can tell.

Patroklos did, but it's not unusual for him to say idiotic things.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Lancer
Saddam's Iraq was just like "everywhere in the world"? Pekka, did you see the video of the women in the soccer stadium? I'll never forget it. Can't...

Um, that wasn't Iraq, that was Afghanistan.

No wonder the administration was able to con the U.S. people to back the war...

[Pekka]

umm, my world view says it was just like in many parts of the world. Nothing spectacular. Wrong? absolutely. Disgusting? Yes. Worth attack.. I don't know. Maybe.

The fact remains, the reasons were nto right, and frenchies and germans called it right. It wasn't sold as 'libearting women and children of Iraq'. That wasn't the deal.

What we are not remembering now, is that it was VERY MUCH PART OF the war on TERRORISM. That was the BIG mistake. People in here didn't see it as part of terrorism, adn you can twist the word to suit your needs, but the fact is, people in here did not view it as such, and it was seen as a big mistake, a dangerous thing that would set the future track of what will happen into the dangerous section, and that part contributes to why mayn voted US to be the biggest threat to the world.

You see, when they show you videos about exectuions etc. that's a sell right there. You shouldn't sell a war to begin with, because it means it's likely for wrong reasons, or not good enough reasons anyway. As for Saddam and the ways, hey, it still was one of the most tolerant places in ME, also regarding womens rights. My point is, it wasn't even the most evil place in the world, definitely NOT part of the war on terrorism, and definitely NO WMDs. I personally supported action regardless. BUT IF I was the president in here, I would NOT have supported the action, having a bigger responsibility.

It comes down to, you do not send your boys (and girls) to war, unless it's necessary. If it's about 'liberating' people, you need to be sure you can do it alone, take the crapstorm, and ready to take casualties and pay for it for couple decades later on as well and be one of the most unpopular leader. That's the price.

[Lancer]

BlackCat, that's right! My brain is getting a tad frayed with the years.

Ok then, the mass graves of Iraqi Kurds tortured to death after their failed attempt at autonomy.

[Lancer]

Anyway Pekka, I added your bit to the list (on this page, pg2) with only a small addendum.

[Boris Godunov]

How about, "the Right tends to demonize anyone with which it disagrees." Seems to be accurate, given the slurs hurled at anyone who was against the war. In fact, the Bush admin. has made it clear that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of their agenda must be considered an un-American traitor.

[Ned]

There are nominal reasons called "pretexts" and real reasons called "interests" for a nation to take a position on an issue. I think it fairly obvious that French and German opposition to the Iraq was was based on interests as both their own intelligence services had also indicated that Saddam had WsMD.

[Pekka]

You evil! Ok.. my point was that.. maybe it's a cultural thing I don't know. In here, folks are first cynical, when in there they might be supportive. You know, people are in distress, dying, oppressed. Freedom gear kicks in, we need to help these people. In here, it would go 'really? I don't believe it... oh it's true? .. so? .. says who? .. so what do you want ME to do about it? Is it doable? Can we afford it? I don't think we can... '. There will be million questions, with cynical and negative attitude, and selling it makes it worse. It's a whole different ball game in here. Euro countries are extremely hard to be mobilized these days. Hey look at our defense. You think offense would be better somehow? I mean the willingness... it would be there, if we wanted it to be there, but the bottom line is that we don't want it to be there.

When you say we don't want to help you, we say why the hell are you selling this crap. When we say, you are going to mess places up again, you say we are going to help people. There are diffferent views to things, none of them are right or wrong, they just are.

[Lancer]

Pekka, good arguements. You sound like an American, pre WW2 isolationist.

...on a three day meth bender.

[Patroklos]

Patroklos did, but it's not unusual for him to say idiotic things.

Boris, you such ****ing dumb ass.

But to be more to the point, since as usual things must be spoon fed to you, not only did Germany and Fance puss out, they also went on a smear campaign for no other reason to keep their illegal oil profits. Without that not only would we have them and their significant reseources, but probobly a dozen other countries.

In other words we would have that percieved international legitimacy instead of just actual, and according to you and your ilk Boris, that apparently cures everything from popular uprisings to cancer to boils.

Things like have a pool of another 100,000 troops to work with and people other than us rebuilding the place tend to improve things a bit no? Or are you a proponent of unilateralism?

Now back to your ravings Boris

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How about, "the Right tends to demonize anyone with which it disagrees." Seems to be accurate, given the slurs hurled at anyone who was against the war. In fact, the Bush admin. has made it clear that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of their agenda must be considered an un-American traitor.

That's just because you haven't experienced real lefties demonizing people that disagrees with them. According to them, everybody with a political viewpoint to the right of them is a "godwin word".

[Ted Striker]

I suppose some of you guys would like to see us invade Syria next?

[Lancer]

"not only did Germany and Fance puss out, they also went on a smear campaign for no other reason to keep their illegal oil profits. Without that not only would we have them and their significant reseources, but probobly a dozen other countries."

[Patroklos]

In fact, the Bush admin. has made it clear that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of their agenda must be considered an un-American traitor

So who exactly has Bush called an Un-American traitor?

Names and links please.