What have we learned from Iraq?

[Pekka]

Lancuer, well of course I get it. .. I've always been getting it!

I don't view things as most do, with right and wrong, good or bad, that we can control everything, left or right. I just thing we should go at things one at a time, decide if it's a good idea or not, and then go for it and that's it. No predetermined opinions from the red book or the right wing. I don't believe in parties, or the whole idea of a party. One thing at a time, let's figure it if it's good and then do it, and if it turns out to be a bad idea, then let's write it down and analyze it so we won't do it again, and accept the fact that the results might have been affected by factors we are not in control, so the next day it could have worked out not changing a thing.

Meaning, that none of the countries were wrong per se, everyone had a good point, things did however happen, is it good or bad is yet undetermined, not enough data yet, it good turn out good or bad still. It's like a fight. You plan to do all this and that, but when the bell rings and you get hit in the face the first time, it all flies out of the window. What we should avoid is redundancy, which we are doing all the time. War has millions of factors in them that we can't get, ever.

But what I've said before I still say. Terrorists have as much power as we let them to have. They can kill us and bomb us, but they will never get real power (unless with a nuke). The only power is what we give them. The biggest reward we can give to terrorists is to weaken the relations inside the west. We are the only ones capable of doing it. And yes, we all need to participate, one country can't weaken them alone. So, I'd say let's analyze, have different opinions, throw down a little and get dirty, but at the end of the day we need to be on the same page or the terrorists wins and we lose. And we will be on the same page if we want to, or then we just have to pull an all nighter. Metophorically speaking of course.

[Agathon]

1. The vast majority of the world's citizens fear and distrust the United States, and do not believe it has the legitimacy to organize the world as it sees fit. They certainly do not see it as a beacon of liberty, but as just another nuisance superpower.

2. That the United States government will lambast as "anti-democratic" governments that yield to the will of the majority of their citizens (France; Germany; Turkey), while praising as "democratic" countries that do the opposite (Spain).

3. That the American right are even dafter than we thought they were.

4. That the world's largest military is useless when it comes to imposing peace on a country where a significant number of people don't want it imposed. We knew this after Vietnam (but see #3).

5. That the United States is mostly talk.

6. That the United States does not have a free press (even the craven British press put up more resistance to Bush's lies).

7. Lastly, and most importantly, that evidence or rationality does not matter to the right, most of whom are still blithely lying about the reasons for war.

[Lancer]

Sorry, the chance for adding to the list expired with page 2.



Pekka, join NATO! Personally..YOU! Join NOW!

[Pekka]

Well I can join. Do I get a veto, I would like to propose few new excursions..

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Is that it, what a disappointment B :

Why would I waste even a token effort on you?

What exactly, have they adapted to? If you mean switching from killing Americans to Iraqis, then yes they are regular camelians(sp?).

Talk to some of our soldiers who've been in Iraq. Try reading up on things.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/opedsPDFs/4224e8896b33d.pdf

Pop Quiz: what was the event that caused all their withdrawls? Sure as hell wasn't WMDs. Thats like blaming the war in the first place for them dropping out.

Surely you're not dumb enough to try that tired old line that the Madrid bombing scared all of our allies out of Iraq? You couldn't be so stupid.

I'll put the 2 and 2 together for you: Governments are withdrawing forces because they face increasing public outcry to their forces remaining there. Why are their people upset? Because they now know the WMD issue was bogus and the war was fault on false pretexts. Nobody wants their kids getting killed over a lie.

Check out the popular support for the war in Poland before the invasion and now, as they've announced they're out.

And again, the reason why they took the casualties in the first place was France and Germany's ACTIVE interferance in the operation before it began.

Wait, so Germany and France caused casualties? They, who didn't fight, caused casualties for countries that willfully invaded another country? Wow, you're brilliant in your mendacity.

I know you haven't been their so I will give you a break, but besides Iraq itself the rest of the ME goes on exactly as before.

Try not to be so obtuse. Invading Iraq is the first step of the neocon plan. It isn't a big secret--Wolfowitz, a primary architect of the admin's ME policy, wasxed poetically before they were even in power about the value of invading Iraq and using it as a staging ground for further ME actions. It's all info that's readily available. Hell, Wolfowitz detailed the ideas in letters to the Clinton Admin back in 1997-98.

Yeah, they are breaking thier militaries back over there. Add up Fance and Germany's troops and see if you can break 4 digits. Even there they are slackers.

Attack them even when they are helping. How nice of you. Look, Germany doesn't have troops just in Afghanistan. They're the main policer in Bosnia, as well. They have over 10,000 troops engaged in international operations. Now compare that to their total military size (and consider how much of that they can reasonably have engaged), and you'll see it's significant.

Another "100,000" troops is ludicrous. Maybe another 10-20,000 from other countries.

Exactly why Sudan will remain a genocidal playground, Boris and company!

Tell me, what's the Bush admin. doing about Sudan right now? I'd love to hear.

You'd know nothing if it wasn't a Limbaugh talking point, I suspect.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Surely you're not dumb enough to try that tired old line that the Madrid bombing scared all of our allies out of Iraq? You couldn't be so stupid.

I'll put the 2 and 2 together for you: Governments are withdrawing forces because they face increasing public outcry to their forces remaining there. Why are their people upset? Because they now know the WMD issue was bogus and the war was fault on false pretexts. Nobody wants their kids getting killed over a lie.

I don't think that the Madrid bomb scared the politicians to change their mind, but it probably moved some voters in Spain to those that didn't want to be involved in the war.

Actually, what you call an "increasing public outcry" is decreasing - of course I can only speak on danish behalf - you hardly ever heard the old song about "lies about WMD" any more except from the usual fanatics. That story that the war was based upon lies is a dead duck.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lancer
Saddam's Iraq was just like "everywhere in the world"? Pekka, did you see the video of the women in the soccer stadium? I'll never forget it. Can't...

You know you're a ****ing moron, right? That was . . . Afganistan!!!! See, this is why no one takes America seriously. Cuz we're dumb ass idiots who take something that didn't happen and say it did. Right wingers are so ****ing incredulous when some conservative talking head says something, you just lap it up like the good little dogs you are.

YOU PEOPLE ARE THE REASON OUR COUNTRY IS GOING DOWN THE ****HOLE!!!!!

[BlackCat]

Actually, at least one euorpean has corrected him

[Patroklos]

Surely you're not dumb enough to try that tired old line that the Madrid bombing scared all of our allies out of Iraq? You couldn't be so stupid.

Who said anything about Madrid, nice redirect. I am talking about their Iraq military casualties.

Another "100,000" troops is ludicrous. Maybe another 10-20,000 from other countries.

France and Germany having 10-20,000 troops, HAHAHA

They have a few more steps then before usurping American power.

You'd know nothing if it wasn't a Limbaugh talking point, I suspect.

And once again you default liberal fanatic brainwash realizes you are sounding like a fool and activates liberal defense meachanism #4 mod A.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by BlackCat
I don't think that the Madrid bomb scared the politicians to change their mind, but it probably moved some voters in Spain to those that didn't want to be involved in the war.

And, as we've gone over many times, the votes for the Socialists were not over Iraq, they were over the conservative government's lying about the bombing. People didn't vote out of fear, they voted out of anger.

Actually, what you call an "increasing public outcry" is decreasing - of course I can only speak on danish behalf - you hardly ever heard the old song about "lies about WMD" any more except from the usual fanatics. That story that the war was based upon lies is a dead duck.

I find it very hard to explain the shift in public sentiment over the war in previously war-friendly countries like Poland to be due to anything but the realization that the war was fought over non-existent WMDs.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Who said anything about Madrid, nice redirect. I am talking about their Iraq military casualties.

Oh please. Other countries weren't taking significant casualties. The war was unpopular in most countries to start, and it was the revelation of no WMDs that turned sentiment even further against it.

France and Germany having 10-20,000 troops, HAHAHA

They have a few more steps then before usurping American power.

This answers the question posed...how?

And once again you default liberal fanatic brainwash realizes you are sounding like a fool and activates liberal defense meachanism #4 mod A.

Funny how I addressed all your silly points, but you just ignored everything, but now claim I'm resorting to some mechanism?

[Lancer]

"You know you're a ****ing moron, right? "

Now now, no reason to blow a spleen or anything.

[chequita guevara]

Sorry.

[Lancer]

It's ok

[chequita guevara]

You pepole are destroying America. It makes me mad.