Whoi knew a bunch of Japanese textbook could cause such trouble?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ned
Before the outbreak of war in the '30s, was the Chinese attitude towards Japan:

1) friendly?
2) hostile?
3) friendlier than its attitudes about the Europeans?
4) less friendly than its attitudes about the Europeans.

Why?

Hostile. Japan had been harbouring some sort of expansionist aggression towards its neighbours for a very long time, and this got particularly worse after the Meiji Restoration as Japan started seeing itself as superior to other Asian countries. Inflitrations, coastal raids, and other forms of intrusions were a big problem to both China (and Korea) from the middle of the Ming dynasty. Except for a period of time during the Qing dynasty when Chinese military strength was strong enough to starve off such aggressions, the incursions were continous.

Even before the 1930's there were a lot of Japanese (mostly gangsters and ronins) doing nasty stuff in various parts of China.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
It appears you take everything out of context, since it's so unimportant to you.

I havne't a clue what you a talking about. I know that I'm opening myself up to more insults by you, but you use so many non sequiturs that you are entirely unclear. The "context" is fairly obvious and irrelevant to what you seemed to be trying to prove. So what are you talking about?

You have comprehension problems. What does official mean to you?

"JAPAN’S prime ministers and its emperor have apologised to China for the brutal conduct of the occupying Japanese army in the 1930s-1940s on no fewer than 17 occasions. . ."

Japan still hasn't made any official apologies. Oh, just in case you don't understand, let me repeat it for you. Japan still hasn't made any official apologies.

"JAPAN’S prime ministers and its emperor have apologised to China for the brutal conduct of the occupying Japanese army in the 1930s-1940s on no fewer than 17 occasions. . ."

Now feel free to contest that statment, but that is not what you did before. You denied they exist with no evidence disproving the above statement, which fits your own qualifications of what an official apology must be.

I can't help you if you have personal problems.

I believe that was directed at you. Insulting me will not change the fact that you are being deceptive. At least, I am giving you credit for playing dumb. I don't believe that you actually are.

I somehow don't think you are an authority on contemporary Chinese usage.

If I'm wrong, please prove it. I've already confirmed my translation with mainland nationals as well as in a published dictionary. So yes, I challenge your definition; however, I may concede that in some dialects it may be translated like that. Where I am, no.

This is your perception. So, you proved my point.

But you made concrete claims that had nothing to do with perception. This is not arguing. You are not defending yourself.

That China meddles with other countries internal affairs? Funny thing.

That has nothing to do with your statement. The issue of Taiwain is contested, therefore you can not use it as an example of meddling in internal affairs. Just because a foreign country does something to upset another foriegn country doesn't make the upset country wrong. This is bizarre logic, where you seem to be placing China in a higher position than any other nation.

France tried to prevent the US from invading Iraq. Do you think France was stupid for doing so?

The point I made is that you are showing a double standard. That might now have been what you meant, but that's what you wrote.

Tingkai is absolutely right about you.

Tingkai only insults me for no reason other than he can not challenge my points. Hence most of his responses are, "You're an idiot and wrong." If this is the type of class you'd like to be associated with, you're welcome to it.

Frankly, I think you need to relax and think about what you are writing. The point I made last was that you sound exactly like a CCP syncophant whose own warped logic is failing him. Your responses further demonstrate this as you decend lower and lower toward insults and utter nonsense. So relax. China isn't perfect, but it can weather some criticism. Silence can often be more effective than posting weak arguments that look like your trying to cover up or distract us from something.

[Kidlicious]

Ok. Three weekends of protest. The Chinese govt is saying that further protests aren't allowed. No one can seriously claim that this about textbooks. This is about hatred towards Japanese.

[Alexander's Horse]

Chinese nationalism is a big worry - nothing like US belligerent militarism yet - but if the Chinese start acting like the US internationally - unilateralism was such a bad idea- we are in big trouble - war in East Asia is not unthinkable.

The big problem here is Taiwan because both the US and China have effectively made themselves hostage to fairly unpredictable minor state with a mercurial head of state. This is not a good idea people - remember Serbia, remember Poland. Similar scenarios. Imagine how these Chinese nationalists are going to react if Taiwan declares independence. Or North Korea is bombed for that matter....and then there are the Spratleys...so many flash points around China.

Remember how some of the more retarded nationalist US posters around here like Shi Huangdi thought it was so important for the US to defend Taiwan?

Now we see China mending fences with India - some sort of international coalition against the US is possible.

[Drake Tungsten]

I think you're overestimating the amount of good will that exists between India and China. The Sikkim/Tibet trade off was a step forward for relations, but I don't see a coalition forming between them any time soon. India can't help but notice that China is still trying to hem them in.

At the same time, China is doing its best to ensure that Japan remains a staunch ally of the United States. A decade ago, people were wondering if Japan would abandon America for a Chinese-centered Asia. Today, it's more firmly behind America than ever. If China's trying to build an international coalition, they're sure going about it in an interesting way.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Boshko


Well Korea is just about the only country on earth that has NEVER attacked another country. Not bad record that.

Korean Forces invaded Manchuria several times. Do Koreans working for the Japanese count?

[Lancer]

If the US withdrew its support for Tiawan but continued to sell them weapons, could Tiawan defend itself against China? China would still have to get across the straights...

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ned
Before the outbreak of war in the '30s, was the Chinese attitude towards Japan:

Likely they were still pissed off about the other two Sino-Japanese wars which the Japanese started against China in order to gain territory and/or trade concessions. While the Chinese were still pissed off with the west for launching and winning so many wars against the Chinese Imperial government in the 19th century. Finally you have the boxer rebellion and how the "International Force" (Westerns along with Japan) sent a large Army which conquored and occupied a large part of Northern China in order to put down the Boxers.

[Dinner]

Excellent Salon.com article Mindseye. It really does explain tings pretty clearly both China's historical weakness visa via the rest of the world and its status as kicking dog for the more powerful countries as well as the Chinese people's endless victimization by their own governments. Those very same governments endlessly play up and propogandize the foreign intrusions in order to redirect people's attentions away from the as bad (if not worse) suffer China's leaders have caused (and are continuing to cause) in China.

An portion I really liked was:

But there is another underground river flowing into this subterranean reservoir that Chinese themselves rarely discuss, perhaps because its implications are even more humiliating than foreign predation. While China was indisputedly abused by foreigners, it has also been equally abused by itself and its own leaders who have so frequently been as savage as the worst foreign imperialists.

Who can forget the tens of millions dead as a result of Mao's Great Leap Forward, the anguish brought to intellectuals "sent down" in the anti-rightist movement, the insanity and brutality of the Cultural Revolution and the savagery of the crackdown on the "counter-revolutionary turmoil" of l989?

What could be more ruinous to China's stature and national pride than having to defend as "the correct line" its virtual colonization of Tibet; murderous leaders such as Kang Sheng, Lin Biao and even Mao himself; the arrest of millions of its own citizens for nonviolent protest; the gratuitous shooting of missiles toward "fellow compatriots" on Taiwan; and support for the likes of Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic, North Korea's Kim Il-sung and Burma's military junta?

Each of these self-inflicted insults heaped as much ignominy on China as any foreign intrusion. And they left many Chinese filled with a quotient of repressed resentment that they would have, if they had been permitted to, addressed against their own government.

Alas, this combination of abuse from within and without has only tended to make China more jingoistic and nationalistic. [/b]After all, when misrule occurs at home, emphasizing injury at the hands of foreigners and exporting blame for one's afflictions is a convenient way to distract attention from the real issues.[/b]

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Korean Forces invaded Manchuria several times. Do Koreans working for the Japanese count?

No they didn't and no they don't.

[mindseye]

I asked one of my better-informed classes (mostly young white collars) what percent of Japanese schools used the textbook in question.

Those with an opinion thought probably 100% did.

[Tingkai]

The big question is why has Japan been so intent on provoking S. Korea and China in the past couple of months?

Consider that Japan has:

- declared Taiwan a common strategic objective
- made claims for tiny islands owned by S. Korea
- approved textbooks that Japan knew would piss off SK and China
- Blocked China's entry into the intra-American development bank
- approved gas exploration in an area claimed by China
- announced plans to change its constitution to a less pacificist document.

Very unusual.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by mindseye
I asked one of my better-informed classes (mostly young white collars) what percent of Japanese schools used the textbook in question.

Those with an opinion thought probably 100% did.

If the German government gave official approval to a textbook that denied the Holocaust, would it matter if one or a 1,000 schools used the book?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The big question is why has Japan been so intent on provoking S. Korea and China in the past couple of months?
- announced plans to change its constitution to a less pacificist document.

Crazy man with nukes who the South Koreans have a pathological need to appease might have something to do with that one.

[Ned]

In my observation, there is genuine hatred of the Japanese by the Chinese, Koreans and other Asians, but strangely, not by the Formosans, many of whom seen to remember the era of Japanese government as an era of good government. This hatred, so long after the war, can only be caused by the severity of the cruelity of Japanese army, which, in turn, had its source in some form of racism. The underlying hatred continues, I suggest, because the Chinese and other victims perceive that the underlying racism persists.

I think the Japanese have to seriously examine what they did in China and elsewhere to understand why they could behave in such monsterous ways to other people. If the answers to these questions points to racism, as I think it does, then the Japanese have to do a lot more than they have to rid their mentality of these ideas.