Pope given last rites

[Ned]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm more interested in what name the new Pope shall adopt. I doubt he'll be another John Paul, as that would put him too much in the shadow of his predecessor. Gregory XVII seems a bit much. Another Pius, Benedict or Clement? Would Innocent be too self-aggrandizing today?

How about Lando II?

How about Peter Paul?

[Kontiki]

How about Billy-Joe?

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Ned


Even though I am agnostic now, I know when the end grows near I will rejoin the church. My heart even today grieves that I do not believe.

I see. And you have "the end" all planned out, do you? You'll just jump back in at the right moment?

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm more interested in what name the new Pope shall adopt. I doubt he'll be another John Paul, as that would put him too much in the shadow of his predecessor. Gregory XVII seems a bit much. Another Pius, Benedict or Clement? Would Innocent be too self-aggrandizing today?

How about Lando II?

How about Nosmo King?

[Brundlefly]

I heard some sound bytes of the pope over the weekend. I think his voice sounded a bit like Count Dracula, dont you?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Yep, that whole sexuality thing is annoying and is a bit hypocritical considering the droves of American Priests who have been caught molesting innocnent children.

Let the f'ing guys marry dammit.

It would have been hypocritical if church didn't condemn molesting children.

Like when JP II forgot to mention that the Church was sorry about the whole heresy charge against Galileo and had no business sticking its theological nose into the realms of pure science.

1) nothing really happened to Galileo, He was just forced to renounce his views. Pope apologised for Bruno as far as I know.
2) What counts is the current approach, and it is different.

In the middle ages, passing bishoprics on to one's "heirs" as if they were the property of the bishop and not the church became a real problem and was central to the church reestablishing chastity as a requirement.

Marxist - economical theory of history
It was some factor, but one of the least important one.
Celibacy has a much longer history, and making it compusory was just one of the reforms introduced in that time.

Originally posted by Agathon

You're an idiot, sorry to say that.

Nothing to laugh about...

Catholicism condemns not only anticonception, but also pre-marriage sex. No adultery = no aids and stuff

Yes, I can see how that isn't moronic at all.

It is not. Sex is not a toy in catholic teaching. If You want to use anticonception, You apparently treat it as a toy, not as a means of procreation. That's why it can not be, according to some theologians, accepted.
Now what You're doing is not treating catholic teaching as a whole. Condemnation of anticonception makes sense in the light of overall catholic teaching on sexuality. If You want to question it, You have to question its entire form, not a part of it, while explanation for it lies elsewhere. You'd have to question why is sex something wrong, and it's the right question.
Anyway, your post was very unwise, biased, offensive and completely lacked tact.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Speaking of respect

French flag tribute to Pope sparks left-wing anger



PARIS, April 4 (Reuters) - As Catholics mourned the death of Pope John Paul, French leftwingers and a major teaching union criticised the government on Monday for ordering flags on public buildings to be lowered in a sign of respect.

Socialist senator Jean-Luc Melenchon and Yves Contassot, a senior Green party member on the Paris City Council, said the government had abused its powers in ordering the official tribute to the Pope, who died on Saturday.

The Unsa union said the government was guilty of double standards having ordered schools to take part in the tribute to a religious leader while having banned Muslim headscarves in state schools in a drive to keep schools firmly secular.

"Let the Christians pay tribute to the head of their church, it's a private matter," Contassot told France Inter radio.


"Today, we have a government and a head of state who, clearly, for political reasons, are trying to take advantage of an issue that is a private matter," he said.


Lowering of flags on all state buildings was "totally out of place and at the limit of legality."


Once so Catholic it was known as the "elder daughter of the Church," France has imposed a strict separation of church and state for 100 years to keep religion from provoking the bloody strife it sparked in previous centuries.


While the leaders of most major political parties have avoided comment, the row underscores the unpopular government's weakness as it struggles to convince hostile voters to back the European Union constitution in a referendum next month.


Millions of French are Roman Catholics, and there has been a public outpouring of grief over the Pope's death.


But Melenchon told Europe 1 radio the state was duty bound to observe a strict neutrality and that the flag tribute was a "favour awarded to one particular religion."


In a statement, the teachers' union Unsa said the order "to mark the death of a foreign head of state is unusual and constitutionally counter to our principles when it is a question of a representative of a church."


CUSTOM


Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin defended the government's move, saying the lowering of the flag was one of the "Republican customs" when a pope died.


"They have been applied at the occasion of the deaths of Pius XII, John XXIII and John Paul I," the interior ministry said in a statement.


A spokesman for Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said France also ordered its flags lowered in 1991 on the death of Norway's King Olaf V and in 1989 when Japanese Emperor Hirohito died.


"It's a republican tradition ... that applies to heads of state in office with which France has special relations or is friendly," the official said.


"The Pope is head of the Catholic Church and head of the Vatican City State" and flags would again be at half mast on Friday when the Pontiff is buried.


© Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Reuters Ltd.


04/04/2005 14:34
RTR

[Ned]

Herresson, even though the councils had insisted on celibacy for priests, one of the primary causes for Luther's revolt was the somewhat open violation of this by the clergy who would regulary patronize houses of ill repute.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Heresson
It would have been hypocritical if church didn't condemn molesting children.

Covering it up, lying to the public about it, withholding evidence from authorities and shuffling accused priests off to other parishes where they could just continue their disgusting activities anew were pretty hypocritical, actually.

[Ned]

After all, Luther lived in the time of the Borgias:

"Alexander VI (circa 1431-1503), pope (1492-1503), who was noted for his worldliness and corruption.

Born Rodrigo de Borja (Italian Borgia) in Játiva, near Valencia, Spain, he was adopted into the family of his maternal uncle, Alfonso Borgia (later Pope Callistus III). Even as a teenager, Rodrigo was given ecclesiastical grants and revenues. After studying law at Bologna, he became successively a cardinal, a bishop, and an able administrator in the papal court. As a member of the powerful Borgia family, he acquired wealth and lived a life of worldly pleasure. He had four children by a Roman noblewoman, Vanozza Catanei; the two most famous were Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia. During the conclave of 1492, following the death of Innocent VIII, Rodrigo was elected pope. Even though he used bribery to secure the necessary two-thirds of the votes, his election was generally welcomed.

The course of his pontificate was determined by economic and political considerations. He established the machinery for a reform of papal finances; recovered the territories of the Papal States, which had been ruled by local tyrants; and tried to unite Christendom against the Ottoman Empire. Other notable acts included his issuance (1493) of the Bull of Demarcation, which divided the New World between Spain and Portugal, and his sending of the first missionaries to America. In 1498 he ordered the execution of the Florentine church reformer Girolamo Savonarola. The course of Alexander's pontificate was also determined by family considerations; he greatly increased the fortunes of his children through ecclesiastical and political appointments and marriages. Some modern studies have tended to minimize the spiritual laxity of his pontificate, but the positive aspects of his reign remain overshadowed by corruption and ambition. He died August 18, 1503.

© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Covering it up, lying to the public about it, withholding evidence from authorities and shuffling accused priests off to other parishes where they could just continue their disgusting activities anew were pretty hypocritical, actually.

I don't know the case exactly, but even if it was so, it was not a matter of official doctrine, but a particular matter. And these are very different things.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Heresson


I don't know the case exactly, but even if it was so, it was not a matter of official doctrine, but a particular matter. And these are very different things.

H, you do not seem to understand the degree to which the American church was "behind" the scandal. The whole church is/was besmirched.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ned


How about Peter Paul?

& Mary? They were an ok group for the 1970's but I could never get into their music.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Heresson
I don't know the case exactly, but even if it was so, it was not a matter of official doctrine, but a particular matter. And these are very different things.

If the church leadership behaves in ways diametrically opposed to its doctrine, there's pretty much no other word for it but hypocrisy.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ned


How about Peter Paul?

Well seeing as how the scriptural evidence seems to indicate those 2 didn't get on, that would be an interesting choice.

There's a strong feeling in the church that the next Pope needs to be a holy man, not a CEO or media star, someone who is in touch with the real needs of the faithful, especially in the Third World. This is what the Cardinals are saying too.

I would like to see this man, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, made Pope, or someone like him

http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=6893&eng=y

Since he was made archbishop of the Argentinian capital, the luxurious residence next to the cathedral has remained empty. He lives in a nearby apartment, together with another bishop, old and sickly. In the evening, he himself cooks for both of them. He rarely drives, getting around most of the time by bus, wearing the cassock of an ordinary priest.

When he was made Cardinal he wore the old robes of his predecessor and had the money raised to celebrate his appointment distributed to the poor. A very humble and saintly man by all accounts.

I want to see the next Pope on a public bus

But fat chance he'll get chosen