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As Dr. Gonzo would say, this country is going so far to the right that you won't recognize it.
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"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon -
If it can be of any comfort, France has made quite a reactionary leap as well, since Chirac's re-election. When I read articles that show the Zeitgeist of the late 90ies, I am amazed at how advanced, even futuristic this worldview looks. And it was a mere 5 years agoOriginally posted by Ramo
As Dr. Gonzo would say, this country is going so far to the right that you won't recognize it.
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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Actually it just shows you need to take a Poli-Sci class and learn the definition of a socialist government compared to a communist or free market government. If you did that then you might have a leg to stand on.Originally posted by laurentius
Your views about whats going on in Iraq and claims that China and Russia are socialist just proves how bend you really are.
The defining definition of communism is that the government controls all means of production, socialism difers because it contends that all major means of production should be controlled by the state while minor means of production remain in private ownership. This is supposedly done to more equally share profits and to maintain them for the national well being. A quick look at the large number of state owned industries in both China and Russia shows that they are indeed socialist forms of government.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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Socialism is the worker control of the means of production. That's why I'm an anarchist and (thus) a socialist."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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Read it, understand it, then we'll talk.
It's a bit old but the price is cheap and I know you commies don't have much spare capital to waste.
Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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I have plenty of books on socialism already, thanks.
State ownership of large parts of the economy is certainly not the same thing as socialism. What characterizes socialism is worker control."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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Ramo, out of the blue and off topic, where did you get that HST quote?In da butt.
"Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
"God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.Comment
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Then there was only one real socialist country in all of Europe, Yugoslavia during the Tito period. Not surprisingly, most Poli-Sci professors disagree with you and define the socialist form of government as what I wrote above. Take it up with them.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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One of his ESPN columns:
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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Ramo, thanks!
sorry for the interruption.In da butt.
"Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
"God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.Comment
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Originally posted by Ramo
I have plenty of books on socialism already, thanks.
State ownership of large parts of the economy is certainly not the same thing as socialism. What characterizes socialism is worker control.
Read the first definition. 20 definitions listed and not one refrence to workers but nearly every single one mentions government ownership of major means of production.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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Then there was only one real socialist country in all of Europe, Yugoslavia during the Tito period. Not surprisingly, most Poli-Sci professors disagree with you and define the socialist form of government as what I wrote above. Take it up with them.
Depends on how liberally you define worker control. I define more right-wing forms of socialism to have less worker control, which characterizes the Stalinist regimes, and left-wing forms to have more worker control.
If we go by your definition. Marx advocated communism, only as an end to something else which you haven't defined. Further, anarchism wouldn't be a form of socialism. Your definition simply doesn't make any sense, and no poli-sci professor would agree with it.Last edited by Ramo; February 21, 2005, 17:24."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...efine:SOCIALISM
Read the first definition. 20 definitions listed and not one refrence to workers but nearly every single one mentions government ownership of major means of production.
That's why you go directly to the source - reading the works of those who created the ideologies of socialism, rather than pulling anonymous quotes from the web.
Edit, actually reading your link, the first definition says:
"a theory or system of social organization by which the major means of production and distribution are owned, manages, and controlled by the government, by an association or workers, or the community as a whole ""Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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"Worker control" can be interpreted as being all workers controlling all means of production (i.e. the "representative" State controlling the means of production) or as being the company's workers controlling their company and nothing else (communes).
The reason why workers didn't have control on the means of production in the Soviet bloc is because the State didn't care one notch for them. You may think any State will abuse its position that way (I suspect Ramo has such suspicions), or you may think it was a specific problem of the Soviet bloc, and that a State-controlled industry can truly represent the people (I think Azazel would adhere)"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- DisComment
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State ownership of the economy is one important aspect of Socialism, but not the only one. It's interesting that the Chinese government is actively promoting capitalism (and very successfully) while running a country which currently has a predominantly state owned economy. Does that make them socialists? I don't think so.Comment
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