CIA Interrogator Crucifies Iraqi Prisoner

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Oerdin


You apparently can't read or else you'd have seen the numerous posts where I said it was a crime the those responsible have/will go to jail. Much easier to just get on a soap box and ignore inconvient facts though isn't it?

I think we all know pretty well where you stand on these issues. I said its just another war crime and war criminals are tried in the Hague, right?Now why dont I see you wanting to send senior officials or anyone else there. Also, you never said its a war crime. You'd probably want the guy in jail just because he got caught. So dont give me this BS about you caring.

And one other thing. Why dont you go rant to someone else who isnt "stupid" or "doesnt have the slightest clue" Mr. Iraq. Because you arent convincing anyone. And frankly you are starting to piss me off.

Tecumseh and Ted Striker

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Oerdin

Actually it just shows you need to take a Poli-Sci class and learn the definition of a socialist government compared to a communist or free market government. If you did that then you might have a leg to stand on.

The defining definition of communism is that the government controls all means of production, socialism difers because it contends that all major means of production should be controlled by the state while minor means of production remain in private ownership. This is supposedly done to more equally share profits and to maintain them for the national well being. A quick look at the large number of state owned industries in both China and Russia shows that they are indeed socialist forms of government.

Socialist state includes a bit more than that.

You know, under your definition half of the European countries are or were socialist just couple of years ago. While Russia and China do have a large sectors state owned it doesnt make them "leftist" in anyway. This **** just gets more unbelievable everytime you quote me.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by laurentius
You know, under your definition half of the European countries are socialist. This **** just gets more unbelievable everytime you quote me.

Yes, most of Europe is, isn't it? That's the universally accepted definition and you can either follow the google dictionary link I posted or look it up yourself but they will all tell you the exact same thing.

You really should take that poli-sci class and educate yourself.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by techumseh
State ownership of the economy is one important aspect of Socialism, but not the only one. It's interesting that the Chinese government is actively promoting capitalism (and very successfully) while running a country which currently has a predominantly state owned economy. Does that make them socialists? I don't think so.

Socialist governments are a half breed between communism (100% government ownership) and free market capitalism where the government owns the major means of production but nonvital means are privately owned. That is the text book definition. Sure, there are different other details but that's the defining feature.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Yes, most of Europe is, isn't it? That's the universally accepted definition and you can either follow the google dictionary link I posted or look it up yourself but they will all tell you the exact same thing.

You really should take that poli-sci class and educate yourself.

Err, at least over here, "socialist" doesn't have the same meaning. Europe has a social-democratic society model, but actual socialist countries were in the Soviet bloc.

It's hard to be a socialist country when most of the economy belongs to the private market, and is controlled by the owners.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Socialist governments are a half breed between communism (100% government ownership) and free market capitalism where the government owns the major means of production but nonvital means are privately owned. That is the text book definition. Sure, there are different other details but that's the defining feature.

We don't have the same textbooks. Communism is the ideal society envisioned by Marx, and the countries of the Soviet bloc claimed to be in the transitional phase toward communism. None was communist, and AFAIK, none even claimed to be.

An important characteristic of the Communist society is the lack of State. It doesn't precisely compute with "100% government control".

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Yes, most of Europe is, isn't it? That's the universally accepted definition and you can either follow the google dictionary link I posted or look it up yourself but they will all tell you the exact same thing.

You really should take that poli-sci class and educate yourself.

While Russia and China do have a large sectors state owned it doesnt make them "leftist" in anyway.

And by the way I have asian studies, wich is political history as my second subject. I've also taken several courses in political science. I have also a pretty good idea of what "leftism" means in Europe. Does that qualify? And you know what else? China and Russia are NOT considered by ANY SANE lecturer/professor or student leftist countries. Looks like you better take again the Poli-Sci class you took in the 80ties.

[Imran Siddiqui]

How in the WORLD is most of Europe 'socialism' and Russia and China leftist countries? Russia and China seem to be oligarchies run in a kind of mish-mosh of left and right (capitalism and large social programs).

If anyone really needs a poly sci class, it's Oerdin (oh, and I have a B.A. in Poly Sci).

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
How in the WORLD is most of Europe 'socialism' and Russia and China leftist countries? Russia and China seem to be oligarchies run in a kind of mish-mosh of left and right (capitalism and large social programs).

If anyone really needs a poly sci class, it's Oerdin (oh, and I have a B.A. in Poly Sci).

Imran. I'm talking about government systems not government policies. We are talking about systems of government.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Imran. I'm talking about government systems not government policies. We are talking about systems of government.

That may explain the misunderstanding as to why nobody here agrees with you that people consider Russia and China to be "lefty".

But even then, I don't think authoritarianism and Statism are any specifically characteristical of a left or right system of government.

[Dinner]

Meaning of SOCIALISM
Pronunciation: 'sowshu`lizum

Definition:

1. [n] a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
2. [n] an economic system based on state ownership of capital

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/socialism

Also by definition Communism is far left, socialism is moderate left, reactionary is far right, conservative is moderate right. If one wishes to be more precise then they can add in additional terms like social-democrat or Christian-democrat but the basics are the same.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm with Spiffor. Even considering governmental systems, Russia and China are not really left. China used to be left, but since embracing capitalism, it seems their government system has undergone incredible changes. Russia, I'm not sure how their governmental system is leftist.

[laurentius]

Actually this is where it all started from:

Originally posted by Oerdin


Lefties don't want to ***** about fellow leftie governments like China or Russia. They'd much rather whine about the evil US.

Whether we were talking about government systems or policies doesnt make much difference. China or Russia are not "fellow leftie" in any level.

[Spiffor]

Dictionaries aren't precisely a good source to define precise concepts. They're a good source to have the significance of words as they're used in everyday life.

If you wish to use this dictionary definition (which btw goes against your claim that the West European countries are socialist, because very much of our economy is private), you shouldn't be speaking too much about poli-sci. Because any poli-sci professor would turn your definition down as insufficient, unless you're in the introduction course.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Meaning of SOCIALISM
Pronunciation: 'sowshu`lizum

Definition:

1. [n] a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
2. [n] an economic system based on state ownership of capital

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/socialism

Also by definition Communism is far left, socialism is moderate left, reactionary is far right, conservative is moderate right. If one wishes to be more precise then they can add in additional terms like social-democrat or Christian-democrat but the basics are the same.

HAHA... using the dictionary to define governmental systems!

And btw, Europe doesn't have state ownership of industry or capital. Much of their industry and capital is private.