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  • #121
    I think Franco claimed to be socialist but then again so did Hitler.


    Do you consider Hitler to be a socialist? Except for some wackos, I don't think many do.

    It sounds like the main difference we're having here is between theoretical communism (I.E. what Marx envisioned in the 19th century) and the communists & socialists practiced in the 20th century. I imagine there are also differences between the common definition of "socialism" and the academic definition of "socialism".


    Yeah, mostly because the so-called common definition is totally and 100% wrong . How can you call the USSR Communism when Marx would have revolted against it?
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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    • #122
      Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
      Yeah, mostly because the so-called common definition is totally and 100% wrong . How can you call the USSR Communism when Marx would have revolted against it?
      Well, Phelps is called a Christian
      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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      • #123
        Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
        I think Franco claimed to be socialist but then again so did Hitler.


        Do you consider Hitler to be a socialist? Except for some wackos, I don't think many do.
        Hitler didn't nationalize companies as far as I know but Franco and (I believe) Mussolini & Peron did. I think Spiffor is right that we can't really represent the whole thing in a 2D spectrum.
        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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        • #124

          It sounds like the main difference we're having here is between theoretical communism (I.E. what Marx envisioned in the 19th century) and the communists & socialists practiced in the 20th century. I imagine there are also differences between the common definition of "socialism" and the academic definition of "socialism".


          Practical socialism is not always statist. From hunter-gatherer societies to parts of Spain during the Spanish Civil War, socialism has always had libertarian forms. I'm part of a socialist enterprise myself - a housing co-op, and no state ownership is involved. State ownership of the means of productions isn't necessary or sufficient conditions for socialism; the essential aspect, again, is worker control of the means of production.

          I think Franco claimed to be socialist but then again so did Hitler.


          No, Franco certainly never claimed to be socialist. Hitler did only insofar as the party that he joined had its roots partially in socialism (and these elements of the NSDAP would be purged shortly afterwards).
          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
          -Bokonon

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          • #125
            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            Yeah, mostly because the so-called common definition is totally and 100% wrong . How can you call the USSR Communism when Marx would have revolted against it?
            Because Marx was a hundred years out of the loop.
            Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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            • #126
              Marx created the damned thing... I think we should look to what he was talking about .
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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              • #127
                Why? He was wrong.
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                • #128
                  Originally posted by Straybow
                  Why? He was wrong.
                  Wrong about everything? I doubt it.

                  Adam Smith was one of the biggest critics of share owned companies. He was convinced they were not the model to follow.

                  Couple of centuries later, turns out he was "wrong" - but that doesn't stop Wealth of Nations being an important read for economists.
                  Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                  "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

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                  • #129
                    Originally posted by Straybow
                    Why? He was wrong.
                    He was wrong about what Communism was? News to me..
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                    Comment

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