How many times per day do you pray?

[Ben Kenobi]

Beer is a useful lubricant.

As is wine.

After all you did say in moderation.

It's the fellatio I'm worried about.

I don't see scripture preventing married couples from indulging in this. After all, you're married, so what do you have to worry about?

By stopping homosexuals from marrying or parenting based on theological grounds?

And do I spend the majority of my day on that? Hardly. More of my time is spent reading about the debates on parliament, rather than spending time discussing about what they ought to do. All 42 pages of them.

But they have singularly failed to prove them.

By what measure of proof? I would say that they have proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, their claims. I wouldn't be a Christian, if I didn't have said evidence. That's why I need to know what constitutes proof of a belief.

Evidence. Continental Drift is proven because it simply requires too much suspension of disbelief to believe that it isn't. Same goes for evolution.

That's a curious thought. Like saying a mercantalist economic theory cannot be true, because for us who have been shown otherwise, it requires too much suspension of disbelief.

Open your mind a bit, Agathon, and consider the position of these innovators. Sure, a theory may make sense now, but even back then, there were challenges to both the content and the scope.

As for continental drift, it is a theory. As is evolution. We will likely move beyond both in their current forms as we gain greater understanding of how the world works. To say otherwise, is to ignore the historical process of scientific investigation, to replace theories with better ones.

Or even your Hegelian dialectic, which says the same. I shouldn't need to remind you that one of the primary presuppositions, is that no current theory can be perfectly true.

Now, that being said, the question becomes, what are the claims of Christians that need to be proven? Is the question, whether there is a God at all, or something else? If the former, then there are things Christians have used, but the investigation and evidence is by no means limited to Christianity.

You know about things like Virtues. Where do they come from Agathon?

That the notion that we are given dominion over the earth is fantastical. We're just here, same as the other beasties, as far as we can tell.

And the evidence that we seem to have achieved a higher state?

But that premise supplies no verifiable information. You can't present any evidence of it to a reasonable person and expect them to concur.

You are a student of reason. Can you not also say that man possesses reason beyond that of other animals?

On the other hand, an honest person of good will, will not dispute a scientific claim if it is adequately supported with evidence.

True, but neither is a Christian dishonest when he appeals to the scientific evidence surrounding climate change. Christianity is neutral to how climate change ought to be tackled.

But there is no reason to believe that he does. There are any number of more credible explanations for such experiences.

Presupposing that God is omnipotent, and that he created us, we also have the point that he loves us. Now, if he loves us, will he not make himself known?

What are these more 'reasonable' causes?

[Asmodean]

WHOA...this thread went a little advanced there at the end, didn't it???

Ben and Aga at it again.

I just say, that as I consider religion an utter waste of time, naturally I don't pray.

I'll say this for religion, though: It fulfills a few cultural/social needs, such as marriage, funerals etc. But for me, it has nothing to do with belief. I'm not that superstitious.

Asmodean

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Presupposing that God is omnipotent, and that he created us, we also have the point that he loves us. Now, if he loves us, will he not make himself known?

Presumably that YHWH would, but so far there is no repeatable evidence of this.

[Agathon]

I don't see scripture preventing married couples from indulging in this. After all, you're married, so what do you have to worry about?

You don't, but plenty of other religious people do. It's quite arbitrary.

And do I spend the majority of my day on that?

Cough...

Hardly. More of my time is spent reading about the debates on parliament, rather than spending time discussing about what they ought to do. All 42 pages of them.

Again.. it is arbitrary. Some people's religion might say it's OK, others not. But there is no reason to prefer one over the other.

By what measure of proof? I would say that they have proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, their claims. I wouldn't be a Christian, if I didn't have said evidence. That's why I need to know what constitutes proof of a belief.

By any reasonable measure of proof. God's existence cannot be proved logically, so we are thrown back on empirical proofs, and there is simply no proof other than the uncorroborated testimony of some people. It's less of a stretch to believe that they are mad or full of it, than it is to believe that God's existence is unproven.

That's a curious thought. Like saying a mercantalist economic theory cannot be true, because for us who have been shown otherwise, it requires too much suspension of disbelief.

Open your mind a bit, Agathon, and consider the position of these innovators. Sure, a theory may make sense now, but even back then, there were challenges to both the content and the scope.

Which is why the scientific community rejected it until the evidence favoured it.

As for continental drift, it is a theory. As is evolution. We will likely move beyond both in their current forms as we gain greater understanding of how the world works. To say otherwise, is to ignore the historical process of scientific investigation, to replace theories with better ones.

Fine. I can accept that. But its the best we can do now with publicly available evidence. Theorizing about God has failed to produce any such evidence.

Or even your Hegelian dialectic, which says the same. I shouldn't need to remind you that one of the primary presuppositions, is that no current theory can be perfectly true.

Hegel is rubbish. His logic, which underpins much of his ideas, has been superseded by the propositional and predicate calculus.

Now, that being said, the question becomes, what are the claims of Christians that need to be proven? Is the question, whether there is a God at all, or something else? If the former, then there are things Christians have used, but the investigation and evidence is by no means limited to Christianity.

What evidence?

You know about things like Virtues. Where do they come from Agathon?

Our natural constitution.

And the evidence that we seem to have achieved a higher state?

Is being further destroyed as we seek. In 50 years we will understand enough about the brain to know exactly how this happened. As it stands today, all the evidence points to this conclusion.

You are a student of reason. Can you not also say that man possesses reason beyond that of other animals?

Different in degree, and perhaps some capacities are different. But that in no way requires a transcendental explanation.

True, but neither is a Christian dishonest when he appeals to the scientific evidence surrounding climate change. Christianity is neutral to how climate change ought to be tackled.

Perhaps your version is, but that is arbitrary. Someone who believes that God will save us from global warming or that Armageddon will come first will not agree with you. And you are in no better position than they are, because religious beliefs are evidence transcendent.

Presupposing that God is omnipotent, and that he created us, we also have the point that he loves us. Now, if he loves us, will he not make himself known?

I could make exactly the same presupposition for Gerald the super space goat. It is arbitrary.

What are these more 'reasonable' causes?

Ones that can be tested against the world.

[DaShi]

Well, I always say a Hail Mary when I go fishing.

[Agathon]

Well, I always say a Hail Mary when I go fishing.

Does it work?

[DaShi]

Everytime, and my brothers don't catch anything.

[Agathon]

[Alexander's Horse]

People who are prayed for get better faster

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
this isan't about prayer
!!!

stop the a**** yo tyou rnewbies

JM

too bad about the troll.


The Apolyton prayer:

"G-d, give me the strength to ignore the trolls, and to see them for what they are. Let me not be ensnared by their provocations. Rather let me forgive them, emulating your great mercy, seeing as you desire not the punishment of the sinner, but that he should turn from his sin and live. blessed art thou, oh lord, our G-d, who created man with discernment, and enabled him to ignore those who provoke him"

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Prayer should lead to (human) action, or its not much use.

So it's kinda like OCD then? You know, like when people have to go through elaborate rituals before getting on with their lives.

[Clear Skies]

I don't pray in any recognisable sense of the word, but I take 'peaceful time' and meditate whenever I feel I need to, which is usually a couple of times a week.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by gunkulator


So it's kinda like OCD then? You know, like when people have to go through elaborate rituals before getting on with their lives.

No its more like therapy, where you get in touch with who you are, what your values are, and how you relate to the world and your beliefs, in order to take tangible actions. Which is not to say it IS therapy - prayer is not ONLY about enabling action, Im merely talking about some ways it does so.

But thanks for the troll.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

0

[alva]

As for continental drift, it is a theory. As is evolution. We will likely move beyond both in their current forms as we gain greater understanding of how the world works. To say otherwise, is to ignore the historical process of scientific investigation, to replace theories with better ones.

So when in a couple of millenia, America and Europe are locked again, will you finally give us that one or will you come back with some god-Performed-Miracle-And-This-Is-All-In-His-Master-Plan answer.