Outsourcing Torture

[The Mad Monk]

Yeah, that would sure show us.

[KrazyHorse]

It's a deal.

[GePap]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I'm not saying it dosen't happen. I just don't see it happening with Syria.

Syria has a secular government run by members of an obscure Islamic group (The Alawites) and is no friend of AQ- they have plenty of reasons to beat and torture people- its been reported since 2002 that the US had sent people to Syria to be "interrogated", and IIRC, Syria was given a little bit of Kudos prior to the Iraq war for their "help" in this regard. Very little internet investigation would show you this was the case. Remember that most of these actions were pre-Iraq, around 2002 when it came to Syria.

I am also pretty saddened by the many responses to the thread- there is no way to justify what was done to Arar, period.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
He was a canadian citizen who was "caught"

A duel national you mean. Those little facts are so annoy, aren't they?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin


A duel national you mean. Those little facts are so annoy, aren't they?

He was travelling on a Canadian passport, so even if he was still a Syrian citizen( AFAIR the piece does not state he was a duel citizen,. only of Syrian nationality) he had rights that were violated when the Canadian government was not told- If I remmeber, you were doing some arguing about Ahnolds Austrain citizenship not too long ago, and yet currently you seemt o be saying that this man's Canadian citizenship could be ignored out of hand, even if his connections to Syria wewre teneous at best.

[Dinner]

No, I don't want to take away anyone's citizenship. But if the guy is to be deported and is possibly a danger then the government has the duty to protect the people. Since he has two nationalities we get to choose which country to send him back to. The government did the right thing and sent him as far away from the US as possible.

There is nothing wrong or illegal about that either.

[Kidlicious]

Is this Stockholm Syndome? This blows my mind. There is no reason a free people should support sending someone to be tortured. This can't be in the people's best interest.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Since he has two nationalities we get to choose which country to send him back to.

what a messed up law. the more i think about it, the more i think that the US constitution and laws blow, and so does americas form of democracy. the hypocritcal shouts of 'we are for freedom' just dont seem to do justice to the irony.


Article 25 of the Swiss Constitution (ammended 2002, all articles are a result of direct democracy)

1. Swiss citizens may not be expelled from the country; they may be extradited to a foreign authority only with their consent.

2. Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted

3. No person shall be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture, or another means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment.

how is it that america, the so called 'land of the free' has none of these freedoms. why doesnt americas govt protect its citizens and those living inside its borders?

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


what a messed up law. the more i think about it, the more i think that the US constitution and laws blow, and so does americas form of democracy. the hypocritcal shouts of 'we are for freedom' just dont seem to do justice to the irony.


Article 25 of the Swiss Constitution (ammended 2002, all articles are a result of direct democracy)

1. Swiss citizens may not be expelled from the country; they may be extradited to a foreign authority only with their consent.

2. Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted

3. No person shall be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture, or another means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment.

how is it that america, the so called 'land of the free' has none of these freedoms. why doesnt americas govt protect its citizens and those living inside its borders?

Because America is not a small, mountainous country, with a small population, and a neutral stance that capitalizes on the ability to circumvent other countries banking laws.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Because America is not a small, mountainous country, with a small population, and a neutral stance that capitalizes on the ability to circumvent other countries banking laws.

because you think that ignoring my post and talking about something completely unrelated makes you right?

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Man, guys. This news is ancient in Canada. And don't listen to KH, he's been out of Canada too long.

The fact is it was a huge **** up on both sides. As it turned out, when the US authorities got a hold of Arar they called the RCMP and they pretty much told the US Arar was a suspected terrorist.

Moral is: If you're the US and you have a Canadian citizen - let Canada deal with them. And if you're Canada and you want to protect your citizen (who also has Syrian citizenship) - don't tell the US of all places they're a suspected terrorist.

Clearly the RCMP dropped the ball on this one.

Edit: There was a huge public inquiry into this case... and the RCMP came out looking like idiots. This of course doesn't excuse the fact that the US sent him off to be tortured... but still, what did the RCMP think would happen?

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


because you think that ignoring my post and talking about something completely unrelated makes you right?

I responded to your comparison!

[JimmyCracksCorn]

U.S. says Canada placed Arar's name on 'terrorist list'
Last Updated Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:45:48 EST
CBC News

OTTAWA - Maher Arar has received an answer to one of his questions about how he landed in a Syrian prison. It comes in a letter that was released Thursday by U.S. officials.

* INDEPTH: Maher Arar

Maher Arar (File photo)

"It basically confirms my suspicions and my lawyer's suspicions about the involvement of Canadian officials in all of this," said Arar.

The letter says "Mr. Arar's name was placed on a terrorist lookout list based on information received from Canada ..."

That's the first official confirmation from the U.S. that Arar was in their sights solely because of Canadian security intelligence.

It says further that "the decision to remove Mr. Arar ... was made by U.S. government officials based on our own assessment of the security threat."

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/01/27/arar050127.html

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I responded to your comparison!

but none of your points is a reason why america shouldnt protect its people.
mountainous? small population? baanking laws? what does that have to do with not being able to have laws that protect a person living in america from being extradited to a country that will torture them?

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


but none of your points is a reason why america shouldnt protect its people.
mountainous? small population? baanking laws? what does that have to do with not being able to have laws that protect a person living in america from being extradited to a country that will torture them?

Well the point is that Switzerland and the United States are two completely different countries with two different circumstances, different responsibilities, different forms of government, and different threats.

And really, why should I try to answer a loaded question? "Why doesn't America protect its people?" - It does! The problem is that some of it's people are terrorists!