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**Ramo** · February 12, 2005, 16:10

Without due process, where they'd be tortured, yes it is.

**JimmyCracksCorn** · February 12, 2005, 16:14

Originally posted by Oerdin

It's barbaric to send people back to their country of origin where they are a citizen?

They talked to the Canadians all through out the process so its not like this was a big surprise to Canada.

I know, especially when the RCMP pretty much told the US not to send him back to Canada because he was a suspected terrorist.

Sure the US is terror crazy right now, but this is nothing new. The RCMP should have known better, and taken better care to make sure Canadian citizens are properly protected.

**JimmyCracksCorn** · February 12, 2005, 16:17

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia

nah, you gotta read more carefully. i wasnt only talking about american CITIZENS i was also talking about people who live in America. i dont think i used 'american citizen' once in the last coupla posts.

Arar didn't live in America. He was passing through an airport.

**Imran Siddiqui** · February 12, 2005, 16:17

Originally posted by Ramo
Without due process, where they'd be tortured, yes it is.

It also against the Convention Against Torture to extradite people to countries where they'd be subject to torture. And, apart from the discussions whether or not the US does torture, Syria DEFINETLY engages in torture.

**Ramo** · February 12, 2005, 16:18

Guys, the problem is that the US picks someone up who violated no laws, denies them due process based on nebulous suspicions of being an Islamist terrorist, and deports him to a state that's ruthlessly oppressing Islamists, that's well-known to torture suspects. That's wrong. That's barbaric.

**Lawrence of Arabia** · February 12, 2005, 16:23

It's barbaric to send people back to their country of origin where they are a citizen?

if they are going to be tortured - YES
if they are dual citizens and arnt given a choice - YES
if canada didnt want him, they coulda taken his citizenship away and denied him a visa.

Arar didn't live in America. He was passing through an airport.

so then he never legally entered the US, and thus the police have no jurisdiction to arrest him or deport him.

**JimmyCracksCorn** · February 12, 2005, 16:40

if canada didnt want him, they coulda taken his citizenship away and denied him a visa.

Yeah, but thats not how it works. Especially when terror suspects are involved. Canada has legislation similar to the Patriot Act as well.

so then he never legally entered the US, and thus the police have no jurisdiction to arrest him or deport him.

But he did. He was in New Jersey switching planes. The US deported him because he was on a terror suspect list... he was put on that list because the RCMP tipped them off. The RCMP was wrong, and thats the whole problem.

**Ramo** · February 12, 2005, 16:42

No, the whole problem is that we send terror suspects off to be tortured.

**GePap** · February 12, 2005, 16:51

Originally posted by Ramo
Guys, the problem is that the US picks someone up who violated no laws, denies them due process based on nebulous suspicions of being an Islamist terrorist, and deports him to a state that's ruthlessly oppressing Islamists, that's well-known to torture suspects. That's wrong. That's barbaric.

Exactly.

As for it being a "screw-up"- Lets see, the US wants to extradite someone, so you either put them on a 2 hour flight to Canada (and flights to Canada are common), or fly them around the world to Syria...yeah, sopme "screw-up"

I mean, its an easy mistake to make......

It does not matter who placed him on a terror watch list, its the treatement he got that is objectionable.

**JimmyCracksCorn** · February 12, 2005, 17:00

Originally posted by GePap

Exactly.

As for it being a "screw-up"- Lets see, the US wants to extradite someone, so you either put them on a 2 hour flight to Canada (and flights to Canada are common), or fly them around the world to Syria...yeah, sopme "screw-up"

I mean, its an easy mistake to make......

It does not matter who placed him on a terror watch list, its the treatement he got that is objectionable.

True, but the RCMP was complicit in this. They knew what the consequences would be. I'm not saying the US isn't at fault, I'm saying both the US and Canada dropped the ball big time on this one.

**KrazyHorse** · February 12, 2005, 17:39

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Man, guys. This news is ancient in Canada. And don't listen to KH, he's been out of Canada too long.

The fact is it was a huge **** up on both sides. As it turned out, when the US authorities got a hold of Arar they called the RCMP and they pretty much told the US Arar was a suspected terrorist.

Duh. Do you think I didn't know that? If you'll recall I didn't leave Canada until over a year after Arar was deported from the US. But do you really think we would have shipped a US citizen off to Syria if we were told they were a suspected terrorist? We would have given them back to the US. Which is what the US should have done.

This is simply another indication of how unfairly the US immigration system works. They allow deportations by low-level officials. Only a fraction of cases are heard by what I would consider competent officials.

**KrazyHorse** · February 12, 2005, 17:42

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn

True, but the RCMP was complicit in this. They knew what the consequences would be. I'm not saying the US isn't at fault, I'm saying both the US and Canada dropped the ball big time on this one.

No **** the RCMP ****ed up. But their crime was a mistake. The INS' crime was deliberate. They knew full well the Arar was a Canadian citizen. Even if he had been a terrorist it would have been wrong to send him to Syria.

And hopefully this will make the RCMP much more reticent to share information about Canadian citizens with the US government, whether or not that information is correct. Way to burn your ****ing bridges....

And bull**** they knew what the consequences would be. They had no ****ing idea that the US would send him off to ****ing Syria because his name was on a watchlist.

The difference in blame here is the difference between negligence (putting the wrong person's name on a list) and deliberate malfeasance (sending a Canadian citizen off to Syria even after having committed no crime)

**KrazyHorse** · February 12, 2005, 17:47

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn

I know, especially when the RCMP pretty much told the US not to send him back to Canada because he was a suspected terrorist

I want to know where you heard this. The RCMP has no right to deny entrance back to Canada to any Canadian citizen., whether or not they are terrorists. In fact, any Canadian citizen has the right to reenter Canada at any time. Nobody can legally stop them.

**KrazyHorse** · February 12, 2005, 17:54

Originally posted by Oerdin

A duel national you mean. Those little facts are so annoy, aren't they?

A Canadian citizen carries all the rights of every other Canadian citizen, including the treaty benefits. It makes no difference to me whether or not he held another citizenship, and by treaty law it can make no difference to INS officials either. A valid Canadian passport is his proof of citizenship.

Your attitude is just another indication of why I wouldn't go near the US as an Arab Canadian. God knows what could happen to me. Disappear for a year, get sent to Syria....?

**KrazyHorse** · February 12, 2005, 17:58

Answer me Oerdin: would it have been okay for us, in 1995, to deport a Kurdish-descent dual Iraqi/US citizen straight to Baghdad simply because we were suspicious that he might be a terrorist?

Would his blood not have been on our hands?

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