Europe - Thy Name is Cowardice?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Spiffor: There have been numerous books written on the subject of appeasement during the run up to WW2 and most of them used the personal writtings of people in all the governments involved and/or interviewed the people involved. The conclusion reached time after time is that intially Hitler was afraid that the UK and France would come after him militarially if he kept breaking agreements and siezing territory. Slowly though Hitler realized that the British and French weren't going to stand up to him and Hitler believed he could keep demanding concessions. They caved on the reoccupation of the Rhineland, they caved on the annexation of Austria, they caved on the annexation of the Sudtenland (selling out their own ally), and they caved when Czechoslovakia was broken in two and Czechlands were annexed. Why would Hitler not think the Allies would cave again on the Danzieg corridor?

And yet, they didn't cvave in, so appeasement ended and the allies did confront HItler militarilly. And the allies got beaten over and over. The reality of German victories was one based on German military success, not appeasement.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Jimmy, he almost did so in 1998. If you think Clinton would have let Saddam off the hook after a few more years of defiance of UN resolutions, I think you clearly underestimate Clinton.

Fortunately, the American people stopped him from going to war in '98. Good for us! We were better people then, not so scared.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap
And yet, they didn't cvave in, so appeasement ended and the allies did confront HItler militarilly. And the allies got beaten over and over. The reality of German victories was one based on German military success, not appeasement.

You must have a different reality from me because the conclusion most people reach is that if the west had stood up to Hitler in 1936 or 1937 then we wouldn't have had to fight a war in 1939. Hitler was intially very worried about what the allies would do and it was only after the allies caved repeatedly to him that he felt he could get away with just about anything.

[Dis]

to muslim holiday.

If christmas is a holiday, then ramadan should be.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ned
I supported everything Clinton did in foreign policy. Had he still been president, he too would have invaded Afghanistan and gone after Saddam.

Clinton would have invaded Afghanistan since they were protecting the people who had attacked America but Clinton wouldn't have directed the CIA to lie about WMD nor would he have invaded Iraq based upon a personal grudge against its dictator. Bush did and that's why he will never be as good a man as Clinton.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Dissident
to muslim holiday.

If christmas is a holiday, then ramadan should be.

You do realize that Ramadan is an entire month?

Ban Xmas

[Dis]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

You do realize that Ramadan is an entire month?

Ban Xmas

an entire month off from work? Sign me up.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin


You must have a different reality from me because the conclusion most people reach is that if the west had stood up to Hitler in 1936 or 1937 then we wouldn't have had to fight a war in 1939. Hitler was intially very worried about what the allies would do and it was only after the allies caved repeatedly to him that he felt he could get away with just about anything.

Yes, I guess I do live in a different reality, were self-serving myths aren't the rule.

the UK and France were two states living in the real world in 1936 and 1937 and they had all sorts of priorities, internal and external, to deal with. As democratic states, for the most part going to war with germany or threatening war based on Hitlers actions between 1935 and early 1938 was never an appealing option. They had plenty of issues, like Italy's aggression, the war in spain, internal labor issues and the depression aftermath, Japanese actions in Asia, so forth and so on.

So with all of that, german troops marching back into the rhineland, or the friendly annexation of Austria should have gotten them to delcare war? Why? Compare German actions at the time vs. Italian actions, Japanese actions, or the grand threat of Bolshevism, and you tell me why Britian and France, both with internal problems, allied to a bunch of young, weak, contentious new states in the Balkans, facing a totally aloof US, should take it upon themselves to police the upstart Hitler?

By the time you get to 1938 and the Sudetenland crisis then, the question is, what would British and French refusal to let that go have done? I seriously doubt that this notion of a general's coup is at all likely, since these guys could not get their act together even as the war was going badly, AND Hitler was coming of the unification with Austria. So, perhaps no appeasement in 1938 means war in 1938. Would it have been a grand success and an easy victory for the allies? I have no clue, I don;t think anyone else does.

And this does nothing about the other basic point- the Holocaust was possible only because the Germans won battles over and over- had the French, UK, Poles and othrs put together a militarilly effective coolition, then the Holocaust would have never occured- if British and French policymkers in 1938 and early 1939 had made getting an allience with the USSR a top priority, mayeb Germany would never had had the kind of open hand it got by luring the USSR to its camp for the first years.

But these inconvinient facts get in the way or moralisitcally simplistic bullcrap, and so are ignored.

[Heresson]

Re: Re: Europe - Thy Name is Cowardice?

If anything, hitler's rise to power wasn't due to appeasement, but to the arrogance of the Versailles treaty.

Yeah? So, Hitler was actually right changing it?
What was so horrible in Versailles treaty, huh?
Germany never paid what it was supposed to.

It's not appeasement that has costed the lives of millions, but the murderous tendencies of hitler. The war might have been won more quickly if Britain and France declared war sooner, but it's not like hitler was defenseless in 1938. And it's not like hitler wouldn't have started the holocaust.

Poland proposed a war against Germany to France right after Hitler became chancellor.

I don't know for you, but given the choice between appeasement and a nuclear holocaust, I prefer appeasement.

You prefer it, because You landed on the safe side.
Yes, there's some point, of course, but the same we could say that fighting Hitler at all was not worth the lifes lost in the war.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Clinton would have invaded Afghanistan since they were protecting the people who had attacked America but Clinton wouldn't have directed the CIA to lie about WMD nor would he have invaded Iraq based upon a personal grudge against its dictator. Bush did and that's why he will never be as good a man as Clinton.

Oerdin, when it comes to Bush, you really have a blind spot. Think about what you say about him. It is almost as bad as the crap Republicans said about Clinton when he was in office. I think it is time to put the partisanship to one side for a couple of years at least.

[Last Conformist]

And there goes Tassi missing the irony in the author complaining about "the Wests" failure to stop Hitler in time, as if Hitler wasn't part of the West.

[Ned]

I for one wish Europe would get out of this "phase" it is going through. I think its pacifism is related to being too long protected by others. If it really could no longer count on the United States, Europe would begin behaving in a much more responsible fashion.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
If Sweden had just managed to keep its EMPIRE UNDER CONTROL, it might have united Europe thus preventing World War 2.

Sweden, thy name is cowardice

Empire. Yeah. Running bits of Balticum and the German Baltic coast makes you an empire.

I'll take note that you think it takes a coward to get beaten by Russia, tho.

[Last Conformist]

Had the Mormons just all commited suicide in 1886, the world would have been a paradise of free love and cheap booze.

Mormonism, thy name is cowardice.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Clinton would have invaded Afghanistan since they were protecting the people who had attacked America

I call bull**** since AQ had been attacking America for quite sometimwe during his term.