Europe - Thy Name is Cowardice?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ned


Che, I think the Germans even today have somewhat the same attitude today. Perhaps someone from Germany can correct me, but people of German descent can move to Germany and become German citizens without more. People who are not of German descent cannot become German citizens.

It's easier for people of German descent to get German citizenship, but very large numbers of people without have attained German citizenship in recent decades.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

It's easier for people of German descent to get German citizenship, but very large numbers of people without have attained German citizenship in recent decades.

Your lucky a lot of Americans of German descent don't want to move back "home." I think that about 40% of American are of German descent. I am one of them.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Ned


It is certainly amusing to read history through a pink lens. Their worldview is almost as if Michael Moore were writing their history books: All history is a conspiracy of the wealthy and powerful to control events and to make a buck. Actually, Hitler was also one of these Michael Moore types as well, with the exception that his conspirators were Jews and Socialists.

*bzzzzzzzzzt*

For making the first blatant Godwin, you lose the debate. Rather impressive, considering that the Nazis were an important and legit part of this discussion.

Here's your medal.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

It's easier for people of German descent to get German citizenship, but very large numbers of people without have attained German citizenship in recent decades.

Yep.
Especially large numbers of polish and turkish people.

Especially the polish people are so well integrated that you distinguish them only by their surnames from Citizens of german descent.
Turkish people on the other hand often form a subculture with their own culture clubs, shops and supermarkets (and of course with mosques [not dedicated buildings like churches, but rather normal buildings which are used as mosques] and Koran-Schools in most large cities).

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by notyoueither


They sold the Czechs down the river in '38. At that time France, the Czechs, and the Poles could have boxed Hitlers ears royally, even without any Brits. Instead, Chamberlain and the French collapsed.

For their pains, a great part of the Panzer divisions that dismembered Poland in '39, and France a year later were equipped with what were the very excellent Czech tanks of the time. Here's a clue, Czechoslovakia didn't sell them to Germany.

There are very good reasons why Munich and Chamberlain will live for a very long time as synonyms for cowardice in the English language.

The majprity of equipment in the armies of France and Great Britain in 1938 was WW1 vintage. The defecits of this equipment had been seen in Spain, where even Italian equipment often bested the material sent to Republican Spain by the western allies.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ned

Your lucky a lot of Americans of German descent don't want to move back "home." I think that about 40% of American are of German descent. I am one of them.

I'm not sure of the exact criteria, but I've fairly sure just having a German great-great-granddad doesn't cut it. The people it's intended for are the old German "diaspora" in Eastern Europe (the Volga Germans, the Transsylvanian Saxons, and so on), groups that have retained German language and culture.

[Patroklos]

The majprity of equipment in the armies of France and Great Britain in 1938 was WW1 vintage.

Absolutely untrue. France was considered by all at the time, and rightfully so, to be the greatest military power in 1939. It also had the most advanced tanks. Lets rememeber that 70% of German mobility in 1939 was based on the horse (outside railroads of course. It never got better than 40% throughout the entire war either.

It was tactics, both extrodinarily good on the Axis side and uncommonly bad on the Allies, that led to the chain of events.

[Dinner]

Spiffor, an interesting point. I shall have to remember it.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
WWII was a war to defend business interests. Just as every other war on this planet for as long as there´s been people. It´s not pretty, but it´s true

You keep making this claim but you have yet to provide any evidience. I realize you dislike capitalists but simply bashing them won't do and you will have to provide some form of evidence if you wish people to accept your claims.

[Chemical Ollie]

German tanks in 1940 were just tin cans. Mostly Pz1 and Pz2 with 20 mm cannons at best, and pathetic armour. They died to anything. The allies had some rolling bunkers with big, evil guns, like Matilda and Char, and other tanks like A-13 and S-35 that had speed and punch but less armour.

What made Germany win was superiour training and tactics. If they met allied tanks, they just avoided them and encircled them, then let the 88's and Stukas kill them .

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

The majprity of equipment in the armies of France and Great Britain in 1938 was WW1 vintage. The defecits of this equipment had been seen in Spain, where even Italian equipment often bested the material sent to Republican Spain by the western allies.

That is not entirely true. The British Army had very little equipment of vintage by 1934 when rearmament began. By September '38 they had many of the weapons they would go to war with the following year, but of course, not in huge numbers.

The RAF likewise had received increasing numbers of newer types by Sept '38.

The situation of the French was not that different. Yes they had a large number of older weapons, but they had some of the new as well. The biggest problem was not the state of their army, it was the state of their will to use it, likewise for the British.

Also, had war broken out in Sept '38 instead of 12 months later, Hitler would have been going to war equipped largely with light tanks (Mk I's and II's) as the medium tanks were not around in high quantities for him either. Germany's laughable panzer forces (comparably) would have been facing the vehicles that would form the backbone of several of their divisions the following year (the Czech 35).

[notyoueither]

Most importantly, Hitler would have started that much farther from a position of dominance. He would have had to overcome not just the Poles, but the Czechs as well. Overcoming the fortified, rough frontier of Czechoslovakia would not have been the romp that his forces had over the Poles in the early days of Sept '39.

Even if the Germans could have made short work of the Czeches, which they may have, they would have suffered a bloody nose, the equipment that was given to them when the Czechs had no allies for a fight would have been laying destroyed along with much German equipment, the factories for making more of the Czech equipment would most likely have been destyroyed, and finally, the Poles would have had their army in the field and seen what tanks might do long before Hitler came knocking for Warsaw.

All in all, I doubt France would ever have fallen, but this is pure conjecture.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Jaakko


*bzzzzzzzzzt*

For making the first blatant Godwin, you lose the debate. Rather impressive, considering that the Nazis were an important and legit part of this discussion.

Here's your medal.

Thanks, but the demonization of the Jews and socialists was a central to Nazism. It just strikes me as somewhat funny that communists use exactly the same kind of language to demonize so-called plutocrats even today.

Today, we know what Hitler was about with his demonization. He ended up exterminating as many Jews and socialists as he could lay his hands on. Communists do the same with the wealthy and professional classes when they get into power anywhere. So, although the constant conspiracies theories of the far left are quite amusing at times, we should also know what their intent is should they come to power. Conspiracies theories and propaganda are not joking matters.

I was wondering: Did any world leaders openly condemn Hitler's racist and anti-Semitic statements at any time? We know that even as the mass slaughter of Jews, Roma and socialists was under way, no one among the Allies even mentioned this in public statements, nor did anything to stop it, such as bombing rail lines to the death camps.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
German tanks in 1940 were just tin cans. Mostly Pz1 and Pz2 with 20 mm cannons at best, and pathetic armour. They died to anything. The allies had some rolling bunkers with big, evil guns, like Matilda and Char, and other tanks like A-13 and S-35 that had speed and punch but less armour.

What made Germany win was superiour training and tactics. If they met allied tanks, they just avoided them and encircled them, then let the 88's and Stukas kill them .

Yeah, that is my recollection of history as well. Germany excelled in one thing only, airpower, at the start of the war.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Ned


Thanks, but the demonization of the Jews and socialists was a central to Nazism. It just strikes me as somewhat funny that communists use exactly the same kind of language to demonize so-called plutocrats even today.

Today, we know what Hitler was about with his demonization. He ended up exterminating as many Jews and socialists as he could lay his hands on. Communists do the same with the wealthy and professional classes when they get into power anywhere. So, although the constant conspiracies theories of the far left are quite amusing at times, we should also know what their intent is should they come to power. Conspiracies theories and propaganda are not joking matters.

I was wondering: Did any world leaders openly condemn Hitler's racist and anti-Semitic statements at any time? We know that even as the mass slaughter of Jews, Roma and socialists was under way, no one among the Allies even mentioned this in public statements, nor did anything to stop it, such as bombing rail lines to the death camps.

Uhhh, I was referring to you equating Michael Moore with Nazis.